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Re: Which Generator and Where to Buy It?
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Re: Which Generator and Where to Buy It? William Wixon 01-06-2008
Posted by William Wixon on January 6, 2008, 10:58 pm
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>I plan on buying two generators this year.
>
> One stationary generator to power the house...using gasoline/diesel
> and natural gas.
>
> The other as a portable generator using gasoline.
>
> I understand the need to size the generators for the respective loads
> they will support.
>
> What generators would you recommend and where to buy them?
>
> Thanks
>
> TMT


me too. this has been an on going thing for a couple years now. trying to
decide which emergency power generator to buy. trying to educate myself
about it, i don't want to make the wrong decision and get stuck with such an
expensive item, especially because i'll only use it once or twice a year or
so. i really wanted to go with something diesel. ideally a diesel powered
inverter unit would be best, but i don't see anybody making inverters in
diesel. recently i FINALLY decided to get one of the two (the 5.5kw Yanmar,
instead of the 4kw Yanmar) small diesels from http://www.generatorsales.com/
but am now wavering in my decision again.

i had a question for you all. i was wondering, with the generators with the
"standby idle" feature (can't remember what it's called exactly), ... (this
is hard to explain) if you have the generator outside and idling, no load,
if you turn on something small, a 75 watt light, does the generator have to
rev up to full speed, what is it, 3650(?) or can it sense how much power is
being asked for and only spin up to what's required? (sorry if that's a
dumb question).
i gather what an inverter does is it has an on-board battery, when you turn
on something that has a heavy start up draw some of the power supplied comes
from the battery and as the generator comes out of "standby" (idle) mode the
generator takes over from the battery and supplies the power and the battery
reduces it's output, then the generator charges the battery to replenish it.
is that right?

hey wayne, yeah, your carts are very nice. look great. i don't want to
bust your balls but how do you get the generator up onto the cart? just
muscle it on and off? i came across this last night
http://langeoriginals.com/hoist.htm and recognized the hoist they use is
the cheap shitzo hoist
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40765
($59) i got recently from harbor freight, and that's the same hoist they use
for the http://www.bpghome.com/productinfo.aspx?ppid=100. i bought it
because i wanted to make a home made copy of the versalift, but maybe it
could come in handy also to get a 200 lb. generator in and out of my pick
up.




Posted by Pete C. on January 7, 2008, 8:56 am
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 William Wixon wrote:
>
> >I plan on buying two generators this year.
> >
> > One stationary generator to power the house...using gasoline/diesel
> > and natural gas.
> >
> > The other as a portable generator using gasoline.
> >
> > I understand the need to size the generators for the respective loads
> > they will support.
> >
> > What generators would you recommend and where to buy them?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > TMT
>
> me too. this has been an on going thing for a couple years now. trying to
> decide which emergency power generator to buy. trying to educate myself
> about it, i don't want to make the wrong decision and get stuck with such an
> expensive item, especially because i'll only use it once or twice a year or
> so. i really wanted to go with something diesel. ideally a diesel powered
> inverter unit would be best, but i don't see anybody making inverters in
> diesel. recently i FINALLY decided to get one of the two (the 5.5kw Yanmar,
> instead of the 4kw Yanmar) small diesels from http://www.generatorsales.com/
> but am now wavering in my decision again.

It depends on whether you need a portable, or if it will be in fixed
service, and what you have for fuel sources. If it's strictly fixed home
backup and you have nat. gas service, then the easiest and most cost
effective is one of the Guardian (Generac) home standby units. You can
install it and then ignore it for the most part, just some basic annual
maint., and it will automatically start and transfer when you have an
outage. A portable unit requires manual hookup, starting and transfer
via flashlight.

If you don't have nat. gas service and are in the northeast where you
have oil heat then a diesel is the best bet since you can feed it from
your big heating oil tank and not have to worry about maintaining a
separate fuel supply.

>
> i had a question for you all. i was wondering, with the generators with the
> "standby idle" feature (can't remember what it's called exactly), ... (this
> is hard to explain) if you have the generator outside and idling, no load,
> if you turn on something small, a 75 watt light, does the generator have to
> rev up to full speed, what is it, 3650(?) or can it sense how much power is
> being asked for and only spin up to what's required? (sorry if that's a
> dumb question).

The econo-idle feature of non-inverter generators is intended for
construction site use mostly. With no load on the generator it will drop
to idle speed, which will also drop the power output frequency well
below the normal 60Hz. When someone pulls the trigger on their chop saw
the generator returns to normal operating RPM (3,600).

Only the inverter type generators are able to vary the engine speed to
match load while providing consistent power output and as you've
notices, nobody is making a diesel powered inverter generator yet.


> i gather what an inverter does is it has an on-board battery, when you turn
> on something that has a heavy start up draw some of the power supplied comes
> from the battery and as the generator comes out of "standby" (idle) mode the
> generator takes over from the battery and supplies the power and the battery
> reduces it's output, then the generator charges the battery to replenish it.
> is that right?

No, there is no battery in the inverter generators. The generator
produces power at all engine RPMs (with varying frequency) and the
inverter unit converts that power to DC and then back to clean AC at the
proper 60Hz. When increasing load causes the voltage from the generator
to drop, the controls increase the engine RPM to bring it back up to
spec.

>
> hey wayne, yeah, your carts are very nice. look great. i don't want to
> bust your balls but how do you get the generator up onto the cart? just
> muscle it on and off? i came across this last night
> http://langeoriginals.com/hoist.htm and recognized the hoist they use is
> the cheap shitzo hoist
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40765
> ($59) i got recently from harbor freight, and that's the same hoist they use
> for the http://www.bpghome.com/productinfo.aspx?ppid=100. i bought it
> because i wanted to make a home made copy of the versalift, but maybe it
> could come in handy also to get a 200 lb. generator in and out of my pick
> up.

A regular hydraulic engine hoist is the most versatile cheap home crane
to have on hand.

Posted by Ecnerwal on January 7, 2008, 9:13 am
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> A regular hydraulic engine hoist is the most versatile cheap home crane
> to have on hand.

Yup. None of my generators is that small (200lb), though if I had parts
to do over I probably would have a separate welder and generator, rather
than the 600 lb welder/generator. I've since gotten a diesel and an old
liquid-cooled Kohler, both heavy as well. The engine hoist puts them in
and out of the truck easily, and then can be taken apart and put in the
truck with them for use at the other end of the trip.

Get one with big wheels if you have a choice - much less picky about
small bumps in the floor than hoists with smaller wheels. Be careful
about picking things up on non-level surfaces - chock the wheels so the
hoist can't run away downhill.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Posted by on January 7, 2008, 9:20 am
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On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 03:58:08 GMT, "William Wixon"

> trying to
>decide which emergency power generator to buy. trying to educate myself
>about it, i don't want to make the wrong decision and get stuck with such an
>expensive item, especially because i'll only use it once or twice a year or
>so. i really wanted to go with something diesel. ideally a diesel powered
>inverter unit would be best, but i don't see anybody making inverters in
>diesel. recently i FINALLY decided to get one of the two (the 5.5kw Yanmar,
>instead of the 4kw Yanmar) small diesels from http://www.generatorsales.com/
>but am now wavering in my decision again.

The only real advantage of diesel in your case is extended fuel
storage. You could save some money by buying a gas model, and cycle
the stored fuel through your car.

>i had a question for you all. i was wondering, with the generators with the
>"standby idle" feature (can't remember what it's called exactly), ... (this
>is hard to explain) if you have the generator outside and idling, no load,
>if you turn on something small, a 75 watt light, does the generator have to
>rev up to full speed, what is it, 3650(?) or can it sense how much power is
>being asked for and only spin up to what's required?

They have two speeds, idle or full, so the only advantage would be if
you think that there will be periods with zero loads during an outage.
It's a great feature though if you're running power tools for example.

>i gather what an inverter does is it has an on-board battery, when you turn
>on something that has a heavy start up draw some of the power supplied comes
>from the battery and as the generator comes out of "standby" (idle) mode the
>generator takes over from the battery and supplies the power and the battery
>reduces it's output, then the generator charges the battery to replenish it.
>is that right?

The inverter models vary speed to match different loads. I don't think
any of the smaller models have internal batteries, but the 3000W
Yamaha does IIRC.

>hey wayne, yeah, your carts are very nice. look great. i don't want to
>bust your balls but how do you get the generator up onto the cart? just
>muscle it on and off?

I considered making it roll-to-lift, but since it really only had to
be lifted one time, I just used a standard engine crane. They come in
a bunch of flavors, if I was buying one now I'd probably get a folding
version such as
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93840,
or perhaps better yet, an aluminum model (can't remember where I saw
it). The idea of having the generator live at waist height seemed
strange at first, but now I think of it as the no-stoop model. :-) I
was worried about the top-heaviness when outdoors on rough ground, but
that hasn't been an issue.

> i came across this last night
>http://langeoriginals.com/hoist.htm and recognized the hoist they use is
>the cheap shitzo hoist
>http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40765
>($59) i got recently from harbor freight, and that's the same hoist they use
>for the http://www.bpghome.com/productinfo.aspx?ppid=100. i bought it
>because i wanted to make a home made copy of the versalift, but maybe it
>could come in handy also to get a 200 lb. generator in and out of my pick
>up.

I'm not keen on those things for lifting. I use a much heavier model
for hoisting my turbine tower
http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/11wind_power.htm, but only with a backup
winch. I helped hoist a submersible recently using a 12V winch with
skinny cable. Very scary, especially when the cable was jumping on the
spool as winches are prone to do. Besides, portability is handy, and
even the non-folding cranes can be knocked down and hauled alongside
the load to enable lifting it out at the destination.

Wayne

Posted by Ulysses on January 12, 2008, 12:03 pm
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>
> >I plan on buying two generators this year.
> >
> > One stationary generator to power the house...using gasoline/diesel
> > and natural gas.
> >
> > The other as a portable generator using gasoline.
> >
> > I understand the need to size the generators for the respective loads
> > they will support.
> >
> > What generators would you recommend and where to buy them?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > TMT
>
>
> me too. this has been an on going thing for a couple years now. trying
to
> decide which emergency power generator to buy. trying to educate myself
> about it, i don't want to make the wrong decision and get stuck with such
an
> expensive item, especially because i'll only use it once or twice a year
or
> so. i really wanted to go with something diesel. ideally a diesel
powered
> inverter unit would be best, but i don't see anybody making inverters in
> diesel. recently i FINALLY decided to get one of the two (the 5.5kw
Yanmar,
> instead of the 4kw Yanmar) small diesels from
http://www.generatorsales.com/
> but am now wavering in my decision again.
>
> i had a question for you all. i was wondering, with the generators with
the
> "standby idle" feature (can't remember what it's called exactly), ...
(this
> is hard to explain) if you have the generator outside and idling, no
load,
> if you turn on something small, a 75 watt light, does the generator have
to
> rev up to full speed, what is it, 3650(?) or can it sense how much power
is
> being asked for and only spin up to what's required? (sorry if that's a
> dumb question).

If you have, say, a Honda eu2000i set on Eco Throttle it will run at idle
and the engine will speed up to meet the demand. Generally they will
over-rev just a little and settle down to the required engine speed.

> i gather what an inverter does is it has an on-board battery, when you
turn
> on something that has a heavy start up draw some of the power supplied
comes
> from the battery and as the generator comes out of "standby" (idle) mode
the
> generator takes over from the battery and supplies the power and the
battery
> reduces it's output, then the generator charges the battery to replenish
it.
> is that right?

There is no battery--the power to the inverter is supplied by a permanent
magnet alternator that is rectified and fed into the inverter. The trick
here seems to be to have a high voltage coming from the alternator. I've
measure about 350 VAC from two leads of the 3 phase alternator.

>
> hey wayne, yeah, your carts are very nice. look great. i don't want to
> bust your balls but how do you get the generator up onto the cart? just
> muscle it on and off? i came across this last night
> http://langeoriginals.com/hoist.htm and recognized the hoist they use is
> the cheap shitzo hoist
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40765
> ($59) i got recently from harbor freight, and that's the same hoist they
use
> for the http://www.bpghome.com/productinfo.aspx?ppid=100. i bought it
> because i wanted to make a home made copy of the versalift, but maybe it
> could come in handy also to get a 200 lb. generator in and out of my pick
> up.
>
>
>



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