Fuelzilla
Hybrid Car - More Fun with Less Gas
Environmentally Friendly Driving

The efficiency of a natural gas/propane/LP supply system?
Groups | Search | About
Login Password
Register Now! Lost Password?

Home Power - Home Power/Home-Made Power for Off-Grid Living. 

Bookmark this page:  YahooMyWeb Yahoo!  Google Google  Windows Live Favorites Windows Live  del.icio.us del.icio.us  digg digg  Add to Netscape Netscape
Subject Author Date
The efficiency of a natural gas/propane/LP supply system? N9WOS 04-09-2007
Posted by N9WOS on April 9, 2007, 8:15 pm
Please log in for more thread options
 In the discussion about electric water heater efficiency some people brought
up the subject of the losses in the natural gas supply stream, in comparison
to the losses in the electrical grid.

I hadn't thought about that before.......so......

I decided to start a new thread that would expand on that, and also bring
into it the discussion of losses on the propane supply stream.

For natural gas............
Loses I can think of off the top of my head....

Exploration losses applied to every cubic foot that is sold based on total
exploration expenditures divided by total gas production

Production losses from bringing it out of the ground. Like.... Gas platform
operation and support. A city out at sea on top of a well head, that is
responsible for maintaining it. Stuff like that doesn't run on good will
alone.

Cleaning/refining losses that will be incurred if it isn't high enough
quality coming out of the well to go right to the customer.

Pipeline installation and maintenance. Again....... A pipe running from
Texas to NY doesn't stay running on good will alone.

compression losses resulting from the boost pumps that are located on
pipelines running across north America to counteract the pressure drop
caused by the gas pushing it's way through the pipes. Those are not small
pumps that we are talking about either.... They are gas turbines driving
centrifugal/multistage fan compressors.

We have the energy that supports the local gas company that maintains the
lines to the end user's home.

we have leakage...... which is usually a bad thing.

And finally, the efficiency of the appliance that is running of the gas in
the user's home.

That is the loss line for domestic natural gas production.


If we get into liquefied natural gas, LNG, brought in on tanker ships, then
we get into a whole other bunch of losses.

Energy used to liquefy the gas. The equipment capable of producing the
refrigeration capacity capable of liquefying industrial quantities of
natural gas doesn't run on a couple of solar panels that are on the back of
Joe blow's garage.

Energy used to maintain the ships.

Energy used to maintain the ports of operation.

And additional refining of the gas to prep it for liquefaction.


For propane........

The losses incurred by it's primary supply. That being the natural gas
supply stream, or crude supply stream.

Losses in the NG supply stream has already been covered.

Losses in the crude supply stream are much the same as the NG supply stream.

The energy required to refine it out of it's originating supply stream. NG
or crude.

The refining losses are less if it is refined less. Pure propane like is in
the little green bottles takes a lot more energy to refine than LP
(liquefied petroleum) LP is a random mixture of butanes, propanes, and other
close relatives.

The distribution of the LP or propane. They are usually shipped by truck and
stored on site in large pressure tanks. Large pressure tanks that can hold
several hundred tons of LP made with several inch thick solid steel with
xray inspected welding seams........... Don't grow on trees you
know.................

Maintaining tank stock. The tanks you see by peoples homes, and the tanks
that you use on your BBQ grill.

leakage.

Efficiency of the appliance that runs off of it.


When you compare that to the losses in coal fired electricity generation,
then it starts looking more like a true competition between electric and
NG/LP/propane....

Electricity from coal losses........

Mining losses. (equipment, fuel, land)

transportation losses (railroad.)

Generation losses.......(process losses, maintenance, and repair)

Line losses....... (power companies, line losses, transformers, maintenance,
and repair)

Efficiency of the appliance running off of it. (95 to 100%)

It would be interesting to see a full audit from front to back on all three
energy sources to get a true idea of the (from the ground/sensible heat at
the users house) ratio for all three.





Posted by Derek Broughton on April 10, 2007, 1:06 pm
Please log in for more thread options
 N9WOS wrote:

> It would be interesting to see a full audit from front to back on all
> three energy sources to get a true idea of the (from the ground/sensible
> heat at the users house) ratio for all three.

Why stop at 3? Include at-site generation from wind, solar & micro-hydro.
They'd start to look a lot more cost-competitive. Of course, you have to
include all the back-end costs - a first order approximation of the actual
costs of energy can be calculated based on what you pay for it, but how
much subsidy goes into exploration and R&D, and how much environmental
remediation becomes the responsibilty of the taxpayers?
--
derek

Posted by N9WOS on April 10, 2007, 3:11 pm
Please log in for more thread options

> N9WOS wrote:
>
> > It would be interesting to see a full audit from front to back on all
> > three energy sources to get a true idea of the (from the ground/sensible
> > heat at the users house) ratio for all three.
>
> Why stop at 3? Include at-site generation from wind, solar & micro-hydro.
> They'd start to look a lot more cost-competitive. Of course, you have to
> include all the back-end costs - a first order approximation of the actual
> costs of energy can be calculated based on what you pay for it, but how
> much subsidy goes into exploration and R&D, and how much environmental
> remediation becomes the responsibilty of the taxpayers?
> --
> derek

Good point, good point indeed!!



Similar ThreadsPosted
80 plus certified computer power supply, worth the cost? September 23, 2007, 1:52 pm
Single Phase Backup Generator to Three Phase Mains Supply? January 22, 2008, 2:26 am
Natural gas space heaters December 18, 2007, 8:46 am
Propane & Natural Gas: Interchangable? March 11, 2008, 7:50 pm
How big of a PV system do I need. October 27, 2008, 8:39 pm
Furnace fan motor run directly by natural gas combustion ? Why not? February 4, 2007, 4:31 pm
Re: Lifestyle vs system design August 22, 2007, 4:44 pm
Re: Lifestyle vs system design August 22, 2007, 8:31 pm
home power system December 17, 2007, 5:41 pm
System Sizing Spreadsheet February 18, 2008, 9:49 pm

Contact Us | Privacy Policy
XML SitemapXML Sitemap