Plug-In Prius by 2010

Toyota Prius - - Best car on the road 

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Subject Author Date
Plug-In Prius by 2010 Doug 06-12-2008
Posted by Was Istloben on June 14, 2008, 5:43 pm
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>
>
> Was Istloben wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pete Granzeau wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> I don't believe it is possible to calculate the cost of electricity.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Trust me. I can read my bill and do the math.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For one month. Next month may have a different rate structure.>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Right, the rate almos guaranteed to go up with energy supply cost.
>>>
>>>>>> The rates change in summer, to start with.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not here, but even if so, so what?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So they do here. Which rate do you use to determine the cost of
>>>> electricity?
>>>>
>>>
>>> My projection of the forward curve, rotating off the front month.
>>>
>>> "High and higher."
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Gasoline rates change in the northern hemisphere summer (go up) too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Furthermore, there is a fixed charge for connection, and the rates
>>>>>> depend on how many kwh are consumed each month (so much for the first
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, and integrating, you get a bill, and do the math.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not rocket science.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And next month, you have a different rate per kwh.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No kidding, and no more of a case for a plug-in, around here at least.
>>>
>>> As I say, at rates approaching $0.20 per kWh, it's not rocket science.
>>>
>>> No matter what sort of argument you want to make.
>>
>>
>> If the Toyota version of the Prius PHEV carries a 10K premium I couldn't
>> cost justify it even at my low off-peak rate.
>
>
> Which is the price point of the aftermarket A123 battery system.

Exactly. If the premium were 3K to 4K I'd buy it but that isn't going to
happen anytime soon.


Posted by Was Istloben on June 13, 2008, 6:03 pm
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>
>>
>>>> What's the relationship cost per kWh power : cost per mile driven?
>>>
>>> I calculated the gas/electric equivalency at my off-peak rate a few
>>> years ago when the first plug-in Prius modifications became available.
>>> At my rate, which has since seen a slight increase, it was equivalent to
>>> 70 cent/gallon gas. Since my electricity comes from coal I expect the
>>> cost to increase dramatically over the next couple of years but even if
>>> it doubles it will be equivalent to $1.40/gallon gas. My present
>>> off-peak rate is .043/kwh. My electric co-op says they will "work with
>>> me" on configuring my off-peak system to accommodate a plug-in vehicle
>>> since there aren't any on their network now.
>>>
>>> The maximum all-electric range at the time I looked into this was 40
>>> miles but I'd guess a practical range would be closer to 30 miles.
>>> There wouldn't be a big advantage to a traveling salesperson who drives
>>> 200 miles a day since there wouldn't be an opportunity to recharge.
>>> Someone with a 30 mile or less round trip commute would save a bundle at
>>> my current off-peak rate since they could recharge regularily.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Our 24 hour rate (no off-peak metering) is $0.198 per kWh (and going up
>>with NatGas), so sounds as if this translates to $3.50/gallon (and going
>>up). Not so compelling here.
>
> I don't believe it is possible to calculate the cost of electricity. The
> rates change in summer, to start with. Furthermore, there is a fixed
> charge for connection, and the rates depend on how many kwh are consumed
> each month (so much for the first 800 kwh, a different rate for the
> excess). I don't see any peak/off peak rates, other than seasonal.

I have two meters, and two panels:

The conventional meter/panel combination is billed at .095/kwh for the first
1000Kwh which I *always* exceed and .087/kwh after that.

The off-peak meter/panel combination also includes remote contols for my
furnace, air conditioner and water heater. They are contolled (shut off)
for intervals not to exceed 4 hours. The off-peak rate is .043.

In my situation a PHEV would, on average, be parked in my garage for at
least 12 hours/day. Allowing for a 4-hour control leaves 8 hours of
charging time at .043 while at the same time letting my co-op add that load
when they needed it.

As you can see, it easy to calculate the cost/kwh but without knowing the
efficiency of a PHEV's charging system, batteries, motors ect. it's
impossible to pin down a precise equivalency figure.


> How many kwh will it take to recharge a 2010 Prius which has been driven
> 200 miles? It may have used 3 to 5 gallons of gas in that same time.

Good question.


Posted by Was Istloben on June 14, 2008, 10:00 am
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>> How many kwh will it take to recharge a 2010 Prius which has been driven
>> 200 miles? It may have used 3 to 5 gallons of gas in that same time.
>
> Good question.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25104169/

The article at the link above includes a hypothetical cost of running a
PHEV. Looks like more snake oil is entering the market too.


Posted by Was Istloben on June 14, 2008, 11:11 am
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>
>>> How many kwh will it take to recharge a 2010 Prius which has been driven
>>> 200 miles? It may have used 3 to 5 gallons of gas in that same time.
>>
>> Good question.
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25104169/
>
> The article at the link above includes a hypothetical cost of running a
> PHEV. Looks like more snake oil is entering the market too.
>
Specific to the Hymotion PHEV kit:

http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion/faqs/driving_your_plug_in_hybrid

At .043/kwh, my off-peak rate, 5 kwh of power would be acquired during a
4-hour charge costing 22 cents presuming the charging efficiency is 100%.
At my regular rate of .087/kwh that charge would cost 44 cents.

Lets presume you average 40 mpg with your Prius, modify it, and get 100 mpg
during the 40-mile phev range. Instead of burning $4.00 worth of gas (at
$4.00/gallon) you would burn $2.00 worth of gas plus 5 times the cost/kwh of
your electricity or, at my regular rate, 44 cents. It would be costing me
44 cents for the equivalent of 1/2 gallon of gas or $.88/gallon. At the
off-peak rate the equivalency would by $.44/gallon.

Looking at it from a different perspective, the phev modification would
reduce the fuel cost from $4.00 to $2.88 at my regular rate for the first 40
miles after a charge.

Too bad we don't know the charging efficiency, actual mpg and actual phev
range. If we did, we could create a spreadsheet that would closely estimate
the costs for an individual's situation. Still, there is enough here for a
rough approximation.


Posted by Michelle Steiner on June 12, 2008, 8:28 am
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> The maximum all-electric range at the time I looked into this was 40
> miles but I'd guess a practical range would be closer to 30 miles.
> There wouldn't be a big advantage to a traveling salesperson who
> drives 200 miles a day since there wouldn't be an opportunity to
> recharge. Someone with a 30 mile or less round trip commute would
> save a bundle at my current off-peak rate since they could recharge
> regularily.

A plug-in hybrid will still recharge from the ICE, just as the current
Prius does. That 200-mile-a-day driver will still benefit from the
hybrid technology.

--
Support the troops: Bring them home ASAP.

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