The “All Your Eggs In One Basket” system.
The all electric house on the grid is an example of this type of
thinking. And yes people do actually want to transfer the concept to
solar power.
A quick example of what is comprised in such a system using 15 kWh/
day;
To begin with you would want to us a 48 Volt system.
The total Ahs/day would be 329 including inverter inefficiency
5 days autonomy used as this is common rate for most areas.
The size of the battery bank = 2448 Ah for a daily DOD of 13.44%
The PV array output required is 365.5
The PV array is 30 X 175W - 24V panels
Sharp 175W panels - $1622.50 each X 30 = $48,675 RRP
Batteries SSR1320-4, 4V 1320Ah $1,562.00 each X 24 = $37,488 RRP
Mmmm. $86,000, you might end up with a few dollars change from
$100,000 (all prices AUD) by the time you have bought the rest of
equipment to make up the system.
I have often had people ask for such a system. They bought a bush
block and want to transfer their city lifestyle to the bush.
I can’t imagine why they opt for a smaller system with wood heating
and gas fridge and cooking.
There’s nothing wrong with the design. It’s certainly an easy set up
to assemble.
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 17:51:58 -0700 (PDT), bealiba@gmail.com wrote:
>The “All Your Eggs In One Basket” system.
Hmm, what's the other egg basket for a propane fridge, or a propane
water heater?
>The all electric house on the grid is an example of this type of
>thinking. And yes people do actually want to transfer the concept to
>solar power.
All-electric homes are frequently found on-grid in moderate climate
areas. It has nothing to do with egg baskets.
>A quick example of what is comprised in such a system using 15 kWh/
>day;
>To begin with you would want to us a 48 Volt system.
>The total Ahs/day would be 329 including inverter inefficiency
>5 days autonomy used as this is common rate for most areas.
It's easy to use batteries alone on very small setups. But as systems
get larger, battery storage gets very expensive. Most people starting
out off-grid have a lot of demands on their wallet, and need to make
reasonable compromises. Which often means choosing solutions with the
lowest upfront cost (like gas appliances), even if they know that the
additional fuel costs will make the eventual total higher than if
they'd been able to spend more initially. It would be bizarre for
somebody who'd made such compromises to waste his life telling others
that they should have spent a whole lot more on this or that, don't
you think?
>The size of the battery bank = 2448 Ah for a daily DOD of 13.44%
>The PV array output required is 365.5
>The PV array is 30 X 175W - 24V panels
If you're going to use an arbitrary location in order to exaggerate
your calculations, then I'll choose a better one. Which makes more
sense anyway since the first decision in a good plan is to pick a
suitable site. In an amazing coincidence <snicker>, our average
production happens to very close to 15kWh per day, and we occasionally
generate twice that including wind power production, yet we only
needed about a third of the PV you've somehow <chuckle> managed to
estimate.
>Sharp 175W panels - $1622.50 each X 30 = $48,675 RRP
>Batteries SSR1320-4, 4V 1320Ah $1,562.00 each X 24 = $37,488 RRP
>Mmmm. $86,000,
No, that's not the minimum, it's just a number you've spun to make the
idea look as bad as possible. Our own setup, at today's prices, would
cost about $30k US plus some sweat equity. That price includes the
addition of wind power, which generally is a substantial improvement
over solar alone. And our costs are not the minimum since I have every
confidence that there are lots of people who could have done it
cheaper.
> you might end up with a few dollars change from
>$100,000 (all prices AUD) by the time you have bought the rest of
>equipment to make up the system.
>I have often had people ask for such a system.
Often? Who do you think you're kidding? You've never sold an
inverter-charger, a tracker, or even a battery monitor or a KillaWatt.
In fact, you're on record making illogical arguments against most of
those. So why would people seeking larger systems go to an
argumentative small-timer who doesn't have any experience with popular
hardware? Why would any customer even talk to any alleged professional
who can be found on Usenet most days getting busted for outright lies,
such as your recent claim to have 15 years of success with a 7 year
old setup?
> They bought a bush
>block and want to transfer their city lifestyle to the bush.
>I can’t imagine why they opt for a smaller system with wood heating
>and gas fridge and cooking.
Perhaps you mean "why they *don't* opt", eh, Mr Edotar? If so, then
what is so hard to imagine about people wanting to burn the least fuel
and attain the highest degree of energy independence they can afford?
>There’s nothing wrong with the design.
The same can be said about most setups, no matter how poorly they
pencil out in the end. The thing is, pretty much any setup can be made
a little or a lot better. One of the reasons these newsgroups exist is
so that readers can share experiences and discuss the benefits of
different strategies. I've found that with only a single exception,
off-gridders want to spend as little on fuel as possible. Shocking,
eh? To do that, they must decide the best balance of upfront cost
versus fuel consumption, which means making the most of expensive PV
if that's what they're using. You're unique in insisting that running
a generator concurrent with losing substantial energy represents a
"good" design that can't be improved.
Wayne
On Jun 10, 12:53 am, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 17:51:58 -0700 (PDT), beal...@gmail.com wrote:
> >The “All Your Eggs In One Basket” system.
> Hmm, what's the other egg basket for a propane fridge, or a propane
> water heater?
> >The all electric house on the grid is an example of this type of
> >thinking. And yes people do actually want to transfer the concept to
> >solar power.
> All-electric homes are frequently found on-grid in moderate climate
> areas. It has nothing to do with egg baskets.
> >A quick example of what is comprised in such a system using 15 kWh/
> >day;
> >To begin with you would want to us a 48 Volt system.
> >The total Ahs/day would be 329 including inverter inefficiency
> >5 days autonomy used as this is common rate for most areas.
> It's easy to use batteries alone on very small setups. But as systems
> get larger, battery storage gets very expensive. Most people starting
> out off-grid have a lot of demands on their wallet, and need to make
> reasonable compromises. Which often means choosing solutions with the
> lowest upfront cost (like gas appliances), even if they know that the
> additional fuel costs will make the eventual total higher than if
> they'd been able to spend more initially. It would be bizarre for
> somebody who'd made such compromises to waste his life telling others
> that they should have spent a whole lot more on this or that, don't
> you think?
> >The size of the battery bank = 2448 Ah for a daily DOD of 13.44%
> >The PV array output required is 365.5
> >The PV array is 30 X 175W - 24V panels
> If you're going to use an arbitrary location in order to exaggerate
> your calculations, then I'll choose a better one. Which makes more
> sense anyway since the first decision in a good plan is to pick a
> suitable site. In an amazing coincidence <snicker>, our average
> production happens to very close to 15kWh per day, and we occasionally
> generate twice that including wind power production, yet we only
> needed about a third of the PV you've somehow <chuckle> managed to
> estimate.
> >Sharp 175W panels - $1622.50 each X 30 = $48,675 RRP
> >Batteries SSR1320-4, 4V 1320Ah $1,562.00 each X 24 = $37,488 RRP
> >Mmmm. $86,000,
> No, that's not the minimum, it's just a number you've spun to make the
> idea look as bad as possible. Our own setup, at today's prices, would
> cost about $30k US plus some sweat equity. That price includes the
> addition of wind power, which generally is a substantial improvement
> over solar alone. And our costs are not the minimum since I have every
> confidence that there are lots of people who could have done it
> cheaper.
> > you might end up with a few dollars change from
> >$100,000 (all prices AUD) by the time you have bought the rest of
> >equipment to make up the system.
> >I have often had people ask for such a system.
> Often? Who do you think you're kidding? You've never sold an
> inverter-charger, a tracker, or even a battery monitor or a KillaWatt.
> In fact, you're on record making illogical arguments against most of
> those. So why would people seeking larger systems go to an
> argumentative small-timer who doesn't have any experience with popular
> hardware? Why would any customer even talk to any alleged professional
> who can be found on Usenet most days getting busted for outright lies,
> such as your recent claim to have 15 years of success with a 7 year
> old setup?
> > They bought a bush
> >block and want to transfer their city lifestyle to the bush.
> >I can’t imagine why they opt for a smaller system with wood heating
> >and gas fridge and cooking.
> Perhaps you mean "why they *don't* opt", eh, Mr Edotar? If so, then
> what is so hard to imagine about people wanting to burn the least fuel
> and attain the highest degree of energy independence they can afford?
> >There’s nothing wrong with the design.
> The same can be said about most setups, no matter how poorly they
> pencil out in the end. The thing is, pretty much any setup can be made
> a little or a lot better. One of the reasons these newsgroups exist is
> so that readers can share experiences and discuss the benefits of
> different strategies. I've found that with only a single exception,
> off-gridders want to spend as little on fuel as possible. Shocking,
> eh? To do that, they must decide the best balance of upfront cost
> versus fuel consumption, which means making the most of expensive PV
> if that's what they're using. You're unique in insisting that running
> a generator concurrent with losing substantial energy represents a
> "good" design that can't be improved.
> Wayne
Ah, wayne's back from his run. Want to be taken seriously? Define your
loads, what they are, how many watts and the time they are used.
Otherwise you are all mouth and no substance.
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> I have often had people ask for such a system. They bought a bush
> block and want to transfer their city lifestyle to the bush.
>
> I can’t imagine why they opt for a smaller system with wood heating
> and gas fridge and cooking.
>
> There’s nothing wrong with the design. It’s certainly an easy set up
> to assemble.