Posted by Neon John on April 6, 2007, 9:16 am
wrote:
>> I'm an instructor for the local Community Emergency Response Teams
>> (CERT). During the the introductory lecture on personal preparedness I
>> always ask them "how many of you take the Metro to work?" Metro is the
>> Washington DC subway system. After those hands go up I ask how many
>> carry flashlights. I then say "some of you are telling me that you go
>> more than a hundred feet underground, twice a day, and your not carrying
>> one flashlight or better still two." I hope to show them how grim their
>> situation could become over the simple absence of light. It's a good
>> first step in making people aware that they have to be able to take care
>> of themselves and not assume that someone else has covered all possible
>> contingencies.
>> --
>> Tom Horne
>Kind of makes you wonder, eh? After what's happened the past few years
>you would think people would be more prepared than they are. If -
>strike that, when our power goes out I make sure I can provide
>electricity and heat. For me that's two locations. And don't forget in
>a real pinch you could probably charge a small bank from your vehicle
>with jumpers - I did that for a year at the cabin. Oh well, horses and
>water.
Certainly doesn't make me wonder. People address the risks they know
and perceive to be real. I carry a flashlight after having been in a
blacked out high-rise. I bet most everyone else who was there that
day does too. We have at least one long blackout every year at my
home in the Tellico mountains. Ergo, I have my vital bus lighting and
multiple sources of heat. Perhaps Tom convinces a few people the risk
of a blacked out subway tunnel is real but he'll persuade only a few
because, never having experienced one, they don't consider the risk
real enough to address.
Here in Cleveland with TVA power, we go years without even a chug
significant enough to trip a UPS. I carry a flashlight because it's
handy in some of the work I do. I probably wouldn't otherwise. I
certainly haven't spent the money on a standby generator, though I
have some portables that would do in the very rare pinch.
There are enough of us still alive who went through the bomb scare
days when the media and government panicked everyone into doing silly
stuff like digging bomb shelters in their back yards. To my dad's
credit, we were one of the few families that didn't fall for that
hysteria.
If you want to use the horse and water analogy then the correct one is
that you can lead a fully satiated horse to water but if he doesn't
need any more he'd not going to drink just to meet your expectations.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
Posted by beemerwacker on April 6, 2007, 8:37 pm
> Here in Cleveland with TVA power, we go years without even a chug
> significant enough to trip a UPS.
John,
I'd certainly like to see some empirical evidence about THAT. That
data log must be gigantic! Just kidding, TVA has a good reputation.
The horse and water analogy from my viewpoint stands as is - like
keeping gas in your car, food in the fridge, blankets and cat litter
in the trunk in the winter - there's plenty of people that run around
on empty and wait until they're out of food before doing anything
about it. As is the case with energy and preparedness - bet you'd get
some real argument from people in northern Michigan (I'm experienced
in that area - a gnat's fart will cause an outage) or in Florida after
a hurricane. Like it or not, the grids can be very reliable. But as we
saw a few summers ago, an unexpected hiccup can cause major outages.
As far as my case goes, I'll tell you this from my experiences. This
is the second time (because I love punishment) that I've lived in a
house that is at the end of a feed - the power companies fix the
largest number of customers first and work down the line. The first
time (in Ypsilanti, MI) after a tornado went through we were without
power for five weeks. Edison apologized for that one a lot since I had
called a television station (FOX-2) in Detroit. The second time here
in Saline, once again I'm at the end of a feed. Ice storm. Three
weeks, no power. Then that deal a couple of years ago. I went up to
the cabin which was out of the affected zone. Stopped in at the
hardware store that a friend of mine owns. Sold all 20 or so
generators in one morning to southlanders. THAT'S when I started out
with alternative energy. That crap happens again and I'm good to go
(yeah, got a weeks worth of stabilized fuel on hand - not that gasohol
crap either, real gas - and I rotate it monthly). So, DTE is very
reliable for power. But on the other hand, someone is going to be the
last one repaired and I've been that guy. It ain't fun. As Dirty Harry
says, do you feel lucky?
So in the end, yep, don't need a genny because the power is reliable.
Then again, why keep insurance? Your house won't burn down. It's all a
matter of degrees my man. Me, I sleep real good at night. Or am I
beating a dead horse that wouldn't drink the water?
Jeez that was damn pithy, I must say.
Max
http://www.northernmichigansolar.com
This Old Shack second episode now available
Posted by Neon John on April 7, 2007, 12:01 am
wrote:
>> Here in Cleveland with TVA power, we go years without even a chug
>> significant enough to trip a UPS.
>John,
>I'd certainly like to see some empirical evidence about THAT. That
>data log must be gigantic! Just kidding, TVA has a good reputation.
My power in Cleveland comes from the same feeder that feeds high
reliability power (redundant feeds) to the Maytag factory across the
street. One of my power quality tools is a Dranez power disturbance
analyzer. Several, actually. This instrument logs each disturbance -
voltage swell and sag, cycle drops, frequency deviations, etc. I
leave 'em plugged in all the time to keep the batteries charged and
the capacitors formed. They're like the Maytag repairman - nothing to
do. They'll occasionally record a transient from lightning but the
feed is so hard (low impedance) that it doesn't last long enough to
trigger any of my UPSs.
My mountain home is the polar opposite. It sits on the far end of a
17 mile spur up the side of a mountain. It comes from a rural co-op
fairly notorious for lack of right of way maintenance. When the wind
blows the power goes out. When it snows the power goes out.
Sometimes when it rains the power goes out. I think sometimes just
the weatherman forecasting snow is enough for the power to go out.
Ergo, I have multiple generators in the mountains capable of running
my house for an extended period. In Cleveland I have a little camping
generator that could run a few lights and maybe a 'fridge if need be.
Except for camping and the occasional exercise, it never gets used.
>So in the end, yep, don't need a genny because the power is reliable.
>Then again, why keep insurance? Your house won't burn down. It's all a
>matter of degrees my man. Me, I sleep real good at night. Or am I
>beating a dead horse that wouldn't drink the water?
Well, to put your analogy right, "why have homeowner's insurance if
your house is made of concrete?" Yeah, I think the dead horse has
taken a beating. Your level of preparedness is appropriate for your
environment, as is mine for my environment. If I did everything here
in Cleveland that you've done, I'd only waste money and look silly.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
Posted by Moe on April 7, 2007, 11:00 am
Neon John wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>> Here in Cleveland with TVA power, we go years without even a chug
>>> significant enough to trip a UPS.
>> John,
>>
>> I'd certainly like to see some empirical evidence about THAT. That
>> data log must be gigantic! Just kidding, TVA has a good reputation.
>
> My power in Cleveland comes from the same feeder that feeds high
> reliability power (redundant feeds) to the Maytag factory across the
> street. One of my power quality tools is a Dranez power disturbance
> analyzer. Several, actually. This instrument logs each disturbance -
> voltage swell and sag, cycle drops, frequency deviations, etc. I
> leave 'em plugged in all the time to keep the batteries charged and
> the capacitors formed. They're like the Maytag repairman - nothing to
> do. They'll occasionally record a transient from lightning but the
> feed is so hard (low impedance) that it doesn't last long enough to
> trigger any of my UPSs.
>
> My mountain home is the polar opposite. It sits on the far end of a
> 17 mile spur up the side of a mountain. It comes from a rural co-op
> fairly notorious for lack of right of way maintenance. When the wind
> blows the power goes out. When it snows the power goes out.
> Sometimes when it rains the power goes out. I think sometimes just
> the weatherman forecasting snow is enough for the power to go out.
>
> Ergo, I have multiple generators in the mountains capable of running
> my house for an extended period. In Cleveland I have a little camping
> generator that could run a few lights and maybe a 'fridge if need be.
> Except for camping and the occasional exercise, it never gets used.
>
>> So in the end, yep, don't need a genny because the power is reliable.
>> Then again, why keep insurance? Your house won't burn down. It's all a
>> matter of degrees my man. Me, I sleep real good at night. Or am I
>> beating a dead horse that wouldn't drink the water?
>
> Well, to put your analogy right, "why have homeowner's insurance if
> your house is made of concrete?" Yeah, I think the dead horse has
> taken a beating. Your level of preparedness is appropriate for your
> environment, as is mine for my environment. If I did everything here
> in Cleveland that you've done, I'd only waste money and look silly.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
> Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill
Speaking of UPCs, I stopped by the second hand store and found one on
the shelf for 5 bucks. I'll use it for parts and maybe get an old car
battery and see what I can do with it. With a little luck I won't have
much more in it then what a new one would have cost. We don't lose
power here often and when we do it's for only a short time, except an
ice storm 5 or 6 years ago that took three or four days to get the power
back on. I've got a cheap Chinese 1,000 watt generator that sits in
the garage in case that happens again. Enough to run a TV and a
satellite system. Also an inverter still in the package. I miss the
TV and computer most when the power goes off. I've got a couple of
natural gas heaters that don't need electricity and will heat the house
or at least this part of the house. Water stays on since I'm on city
water and they have lots and lots of storage and redundant backup
pumping systems.
Flashlights, batteries, candles, good chainsaws and generators are
the things needed most after storms. Anyway I'm prepared except for the
cable modem, I use VOIP only for phone and when the power goes off no
phone or online computer, I don't have a cell phone. DSL would fix the
online problem if it were a chronic problem, but it isn't so I'll just
stick with what I have and if I have to, use the neighbors DSL if power
goes out for an extended period of time. My neighbor agreed to let me
put my wireless router on his system and power it so I could have the
net if it ever comes to that. It's really not that difficult to get
the basic stuff up and running when the power goes off if a person will
just do a little planning and thinking. Oh yea "realize", I see I
misspelled it in the header.
Posted by Vaughn Simon on April 7, 2007, 6:02 pm
> I've got a couple of natural gas heaters that don't need electricity and will
> heat the house or at least this part of the house.
Very good thinking! This will get you by for 90% of all ice storms and
other power outages. But what about the rare natural gas outage? I used to
always keep a KeroSun heater around for when all else failed, but now winters
aren't a problem. (I live in S. FL)
> Flashlights, batteries, candles...
Oops! Stop right there! I got rid of my candles and oil lamps years ago in
favor of fluorescent lanterns. They give off amazing light and are guaranteed
to not set your house on fire. The batteries last for days. We have one LED
lantern that serves night light duty in the bathroom.
> Anyway I'm prepared except for the cable modem, I use VOIP only for phone
> and when the power goes off no phone or online computer, I don't have a cell
> phone. DSL would fix the online problem if it were a chronic problem, but
> it isn't so I'll just stick with what I have and if I have to, use the
> neighbors DSL if power goes out for an extended period of time. My neighbor
> agreed to let me put my wireless router on his system and power it so I could
> have the net if it ever comes to that.
I don't know about your area, but Bell South does not have emergency
generators at most of their neighborhood mux terminals. That means that all
phones and DSL die a few hours after a power failure. Even our Fire Stations
lose phone service for the same reason. They have portable generators, but not
enough to go around.
Vaughn
XML site map
>> (CERT). During the the introductory lecture on personal preparedness I
>> always ask them "how many of you take the Metro to work?" Metro is the
>> Washington DC subway system. After those hands go up I ask how many
>> carry flashlights. I then say "some of you are telling me that you go
>> more than a hundred feet underground, twice a day, and your not carrying
>> one flashlight or better still two." I hope to show them how grim their
>> situation could become over the simple absence of light. It's a good
>> first step in making people aware that they have to be able to take care
>> of themselves and not assume that someone else has covered all possible
>> contingencies.
>> --
>> Tom Horne
>Kind of makes you wonder, eh? After what's happened the past few years
>you would think people would be more prepared than they are. If -
>strike that, when our power goes out I make sure I can provide
>electricity and heat. For me that's two locations. And don't forget in
>a real pinch you could probably charge a small bank from your vehicle
>with jumpers - I did that for a year at the cabin. Oh well, horses and
>water.