Posted by Ulysses on April 23, 2007, 3:05 pm
> On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:16:50 -0700, "Ulysses"
> >According to my invoice from my well pump installation I have:
> >
> >Berkeley Pump Model #220P4FMGS-03
> > Motor Model #2243009203
> >
> >I was unable to find it on Berkeley's web site. I also have not yet come
> >across other information such as the current draw rating etc. It's
> >somewhere.
> You'll find full motor specs here
> http://www.franklin-electric.com/Manual/AIM_13.htm . (224300 series)
> About 10A at 230V.
> >They are calling it a 1 1/2 HP 230 volt 1 phase 20 GPM pump. My warranty
> >info states that it is either a MGS Series or ValuSub 4" pump but I think
> >it's probably the MGS assuming it's the more expensive model.
> Most submersible output curves are similar for the same hp and gpm.
> There are a few like the Flint and Walling Deep Set series for example
> that are different since they're optimized for higher pressure.
> >According to my notes my pump is installed at 106 feet and not 120 feet
as I
> >had thought. The difference in elevation between the lowest and highest
> >parts of my land is 144 feet according to my parcel maps and this was
> >confirmed with an altimeter.
> That's less than half the initial specs, which accounts for the
> confusion about projected versus actual flows. Your pump won't get to
> be in the Guinness book after all. :-)
> > The fill pipe at the top of my storage tank is
> >about equal to the highest point on my land and the well is very near the
> >lowest part but perhaps about 3 feet higher. I'm guessing that the water
> >level in the well is currently around 15 feet below ground level.
> >
> >So, the height to which it is pumping is approximately 141 feet and it is
> >pumping from 106 feet giving us a total of 247 feet. If you only count
from
> >the water level then this is, of course, less.
> 15 plus 138 = 153' (plus friction losses) normal head. It could be as
> much as 106 plus 138 = 244' max head if the water level draws down to
> the pump.
> >I filled my tank when it was completely empty (650 gallon tank) and it
took
> >about 42 minutes but I had stopped and restarted it a couple of times
> >(someone turned on a load and the well pump shut down) so this number is
not
> >precise. I again filled it from almost empty (about 3 inches of water in
> >it) and it took 38 minutes. That's roughly 625 gallons so that would be
> >just under 16.5 gallons/minutes. So far the lowest flow rate I've
> >calculated was about 15.5 gpm.
> >For the last several days (no float switch installed yet) I've been
looking
> >in the tank and estimating how much water is missing and dividing that by
17
> >gpm and running my generator accordingly and it's been coming out very
close
> >to full.
> >
> >So does 15.5 gpm seem like a flow rate you would expect in my situation?
> According to my Berkeley curves, which as it happens are for MGS
> Trimline series, a 1.5hp 20gpm should do 26.4gpm at 150' head, and
> 16.4 at 250' head. So now your flows seem *less* than expected. New
> pumps usually outperform their curves, so your results indicate about
> 300' actual head. Perhaps your static level is lower than you think,
> or maybe it draws down substantially during the run. Throw in some
> friction loss and/or low generator output and it fits.
The low output seems to fit my situation: my 9 HP Honda powered 4200/5000
generator drops to a little over 100 (one leg) volts when the pump is
running. My cheap Chinese 5000/5500 generator was set a bit too low at the
factory and I adjusted the voltage/frequency this morning so I'll be finding
out soon if it pumps any faster.
I think they would have told me if they'd put in a flow restrictor--at least
I hope they would have. I'm about ready to call them to see if they can
give me a wiring diagram for my float switch so I can move it up to my
little tank on the hill and my water supply will then become automatic.
I'll ask about the restrictor. BTW I'm getting a hair over 40 psi, not the
26 or 27 psi I was expecting from my gravity-fed system. I forget: 1 1/2'
of elevation gets you 1 psi?
Your pump
> shouldn't be run with less than 80' of head, so another possibility is
> that the installer included a flow reducer to allow the pump to be
> operated without the extra lift up the hill. If he restricted the
> flow, expect to see current draws lower than spec. And of course
> there's always the chance that what's down the hole doesn't match the
> paperwork.
> Regardless, those delivery rates are great for whenever you use a
> generator as running times will be as short as possible. I've
> personally run a 1.5hp pump from a single Outback FX and a
> transformer, so I know that combination should work for you as well if
> you decide to go that way.
I ordered two Outbacks and the transformer and, after reading all the great
responses to my post, I'm confident it will work out well (no pun intended)
for me. So far the most I've had to run the well pump at one time was 20
minutes and that got it above the fill pipe so either it was pumping at a
higher rate or I was way off on my estimate of how much water was missing
from the tank. On the average I expect to be running it around 15 minutes a
day after we do some landscaping. Right now I'm still installing the water
pipes and I'm working on making it freeze-proof. I bought some automatic
drain valves to put on both ends of the pipe from the pump so any water left
in the pipe will be about 15 inches or more below ground so I expect to be
able to run my pump when it's below freezing. I did quite a bit of
searching on Yahoo and Google but could not find any mention of automatic
drain valves for a well system, only sprinklers. That kinda makes me wonder
if it's a great idea. I bought the best quality ones I could find and they
are going to be surrounded by a drain box which will be surrounded by
gravel. In any case it won't take a lot if digging to get to them if they
should fail.
In any case my wife and daughters are glad they don't run out of water while
taking and shower any more and it's great to have a good water supply
without having any electricity on while using it. When I was using a 55
gallon drum for my gravity system it took about 15-20 minutes to fill it
with 1/2" tubing going to it--a long, long way from being effecient.
> Your lifts are very close to ours - about 80+100 to start, maximum
> 225+100 if we draw it all the way down to the pump.
> http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/07solar_power.htm . We planned for
> running off the inverters concurrent with some much larger loads, so
> our pump is a 1/2hp-5 (less than half the current of your 1.5hp).
> Output starts off at about 7gpm and drops to about 5 at max lift.
> >I tried to email this but it looks like it's not set up.
> Don't forget to take the "remove" out of the address.
> Wayne
Posted by Ecnerwal on April 23, 2007, 5:20 pm
> I think they would have told me if they'd put in a flow restrictor--at least
> I hope they would have.
Well, if they did, don't go yanking it. If one is there, it's because
the pump can be overloaded by pumping from low head.
> I'm about ready to call them to see if they can
> give me a wiring diagram for my float switch so I can move it up to my
> little tank on the hill and my water supply will then become automatic.
Be very careful of lightning strikes, or at least be very proactive
about putting in a bunch of suppression and ground rods (the well casing
serves a big ground rod, and should be tied in, per most suggestions).
You run control switches (and wires) up the hill, you might attract a
strike to the well controls/pump. Mind you, finding non-conflicting
lightning protection information seems to be a matter of only getting it
from one source - any two seem to differ in some detail about what you
should/should not do.
> I'll ask about the restrictor. BTW I'm getting a hair over 40 psi, not the
> 26 or 27 psi I was expecting from my gravity-fed system. I forget: 1 1/2'
> of elevation gets you 1 psi?
About 2.31 ft water head = 1 PSI. 40+ PSI would mean about 93 feet of
head. I got my well in and have been pump shopping - 100 ft static and
320 feet overall, drillers suggest pump setting of 300 feet. That seems
to mean that the pipe going down the well should be 200PSI, in case the
water level ever gets anywhere near the pump (figuring on 20/40 or 30/50
pressure tank a few feet above the top of the well). The above-ground
could be 100, but will be 160 because I already have some 160 on hand.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Posted by Ulysses on April 23, 2007, 9:18 pm
> > I think they would have told me if they'd put in a flow restrictor--at
least
> > I hope they would have.
> Well, if they did, don't go yanking it. If one is there, it's because
> the pump can be overloaded by pumping from low head.
OK. I was warned not to run it without an outlet for the water, i.e. don't
hook up a garden hose with a shut-off nozzle unless I have another hose
that's open.
> > I'm about ready to call them to see if they can
> > give me a wiring diagram for my float switch so I can move it up to my
> > little tank on the hill and my water supply will then become automatic.
> Be very careful of lightning strikes, or at least be very proactive
> about putting in a bunch of suppression and ground rods (the well casing
> serves a big ground rod, and should be tied in, per most suggestions).
> You run control switches (and wires) up the hill, you might attract a
> strike to the well controls/pump. Mind you, finding non-conflicting
> lightning protection information seems to be a matter of only getting it
> from one source - any two seem to differ in some detail about what you
> should/should not do.
Lightning had not crossed my mind. I did not think it would be an issue
with the wire in conduit and mostly underground, but I search for info like
you suggested.
> > I'll ask about the restrictor. BTW I'm getting a hair over 40 psi, not
the
> > 26 or 27 psi I was expecting from my gravity-fed system. I forget: 1
1/2'
> > of elevation gets you 1 psi?
> About 2.31 ft water head = 1 PSI. 40+ PSI would mean about 93 feet of
> head. I got my well in and have been pump shopping - 100 ft static and
> 320 feet overall, drillers suggest pump setting of 300 feet. That seems
> to mean that the pipe going down the well should be 200PSI, in case the
> water level ever gets anywhere near the pump (figuring on 20/40 or 30/50
> pressure tank a few feet above the top of the well). The above-ground
> could be 100, but will be 160 because I already have some 160 on hand.
> --
> Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Posted by wmbjk on April 23, 2007, 6:24 pm
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:05:00 -0700, "Ulysses"
>I think they would have told me if they'd put in a flow restrictor--at least
>I hope they would have.
In your case it would only be an issue if you ran the pump
open-discharge at the well head. So a reasonable approach would have
been a written warning about upthrust.
http://welltamer.com/welltamer_upthrust.html
> I'm about ready to call them to see if they can
>give me a wiring diagram for my float switch so I can move it up to my
>little tank on the hill and my water supply will then become automatic.
>I'll ask about the restrictor.
Here's a diagram for the usual circuit
http://www.franklin-electric.com/aid/vol16no2.htm . If your control box
doesn't already have a contactor then you'll need to add one (about
$15). You can wire a timer in series with the float switch so that the
pump is restricted to running at the best time. I like this one
http://www.intermatic.com/?action=prod&pid 3 (about $30 at Home
Depot) because it's powered 100% by a AAA which lasts a year or more.
While you're talking to that contractor, ask him if he installed a
motor protection device. It's most needed if the recovery rate is less
than the pumping rate. This one is a popular choice
http://www.franklin-electric.com/Prod_text/item8.htm . $128 here
http://tinyurl.com/2lvxyl , but shop around if you need one.
> BTW I'm getting a hair over 40 psi, not the
>26 or 27 psi I was expecting from my gravity-fed system. I forget: 1 1/2'
>of elevation gets you 1 psi?
1psi for each 2.31 feet of elevation. IIRC, the tank is at the top of
a 140' hill, and the well is at the bottom. If you're getting 40psi,
then either the house is nearer the bottom of the hill, or you need a
new gauge. :-)
>Right now I'm still installing the water
>pipes and I'm working on making it freeze-proof. I bought some automatic
>drain valves to put on both ends of the pipe from the pump so any water left
>in the pipe will be about 15 inches or more below ground so I expect to be
>able to run my pump when it's below freezing. I did quite a bit of
>searching on Yahoo and Google but could not find any mention of automatic
>drain valves for a well system, only sprinklers. That kinda makes me wonder
>if it's a great idea. I bought the best quality ones I could find and they
>are going to be surrounded by a drain box which will be surrounded by
>gravel. In any case it won't take a lot if digging to get to them if they
>should fail.
The normal setup in cold country is to have a pitless adapter (#7 on
the diagram here http://www.aquascience.net/well_accessories.htm ) at
the well head, buried pipe, and an insulated cover over the water
inlet to the tank if it's an above-ground tank. There shouldn't be
anything that needs draining.
Wayne
Posted by sylvan butler on April 24, 2007, 11:00 am
> On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:05:00 -0700, "Ulysses"
>> BTW I'm getting a hair over 40 psi, not the
>>26 or 27 psi I was expecting from my gravity-fed system. I forget: 1 1/2'
>>of elevation gets you 1 psi?
> 1psi for each 2.31 feet of elevation. IIRC, the tank is at the top of
> a 140' hill, and the well is at the bottom. If you're getting 40psi,
> then either the house is nearer the bottom of the hill, or you need a
> new gauge. :-)
140ft * 1psi/2.31ft = 60psi. the house must be 2/3 of the way down.
Also don't forget it is the height of the water column. So if you have
an 8ft tall tank on top of the hill, you have 3psi more when the tank is
full than when it is empty.
sdb
--
What's seen on your screen? http://pcscreenwatch.com
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com
XML site map
> >According to my invoice from my well pump installation I have:
> >
> >Berkeley Pump Model #220P4FMGS-03
> > Motor Model #2243009203
> >
> >I was unable to find it on Berkeley's web site. I also have not yet come
> >across other information such as the current draw rating etc. It's
> >somewhere.
> You'll find full motor specs here
> http://www.franklin-electric.com/Manual/AIM_13.htm . (224300 series)
> About 10A at 230V.
> >They are calling it a 1 1/2 HP 230 volt 1 phase 20 GPM pump. My warranty
> >info states that it is either a MGS Series or ValuSub 4" pump but I think
> >it's probably the MGS assuming it's the more expensive model.
> Most submersible output curves are similar for the same hp and gpm.
> There are a few like the Flint and Walling Deep Set series for example
> that are different since they're optimized for higher pressure.
> >According to my notes my pump is installed at 106 feet and not 120 feet
as I
> >had thought. The difference in elevation between the lowest and highest
> >parts of my land is 144 feet according to my parcel maps and this was
> >confirmed with an altimeter.
> That's less than half the initial specs, which accounts for the
> confusion about projected versus actual flows. Your pump won't get to
> be in the Guinness book after all. :-)
> > The fill pipe at the top of my storage tank is
> >about equal to the highest point on my land and the well is very near the
> >lowest part but perhaps about 3 feet higher. I'm guessing that the water
> >level in the well is currently around 15 feet below ground level.
> >
> >So, the height to which it is pumping is approximately 141 feet and it is
> >pumping from 106 feet giving us a total of 247 feet. If you only count
from
> >the water level then this is, of course, less.
> 15 plus 138 = 153' (plus friction losses) normal head. It could be as
> much as 106 plus 138 = 244' max head if the water level draws down to
> the pump.
> >I filled my tank when it was completely empty (650 gallon tank) and it
took
> >about 42 minutes but I had stopped and restarted it a couple of times
> >(someone turned on a load and the well pump shut down) so this number is
not
> >precise. I again filled it from almost empty (about 3 inches of water in
> >it) and it took 38 minutes. That's roughly 625 gallons so that would be
> >just under 16.5 gallons/minutes. So far the lowest flow rate I've
> >calculated was about 15.5 gpm.
> >For the last several days (no float switch installed yet) I've been