Posted by Spehro Pefhany on June 3, 2010, 9:22 am
On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 21:45:44 -0400, the renowned "Michael A. Terrell"
>"miso@sushi.com" wrote:
>>
>> wrote:
>> > "m...@sushi.com" wrote:
>> >
>> > > Seriously, would you trust a Harbor Freight solar cell? I don't buy
>> > > anything from that store that needs to plug into the mains.
>> >
>> > That's your choice. Buy whatever turns your crank. I have several
>> > power tools I bought there, and they do exactly what I bought them to
>> > do. Several work better than the Craftsman crap they replaced. They
>> > should change their name to Crapsman.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
>> > have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
>>
>> I was in HF one day when a guy returned a reciprocating saw. It caught
>> fire. Need I say more!
> Yes. You have no details, just a burnt saw. I've seen a lot of
>brands burn up over the last 40+ years. Have you ever walked into a
>tool repair business? Not one burnt up harbor freight tool, but just
>about any other brand you can imagine are waiting for parts.
That's because _nobody_ *repairs* HF tools, you just toss them!
I'm going to have a $.99 angle grinder repaired? The guy can't take
the screws out for that.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Posted by Michael A. Terrell on June 3, 2010, 9:49 am
Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>
> On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 21:45:44 -0400, the renowned "Michael A. Terrell"
>
> >
> >"miso@sushi.com" wrote:
> >>
> >> wrote:
> >> > "m...@sushi.com" wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Seriously, would you trust a Harbor Freight solar cell? I don't buy
> >> > > anything from that store that needs to plug into the mains.
> >> >
> >> > That's your choice. Buy whatever turns your crank. I have several
> >> > power tools I bought there, and they do exactly what I bought them to
> >> > do. Several work better than the Craftsman crap they replaced. They
> >> > should change their name to Crapsman.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
> >> > have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
> >>
> >> I was in HF one day when a guy returned a reciprocating saw. It caught
> >> fire. Need I say more!
> >
> >
> > Yes. You have no details, just a burnt saw. I've seen a lot of
> >brands burn up over the last 40+ years. Have you ever walked into a
> >tool repair business? Not one burnt up harbor freight tool, but just
> >about any other brand you can imagine are waiting for parts.
>
> That's because _nobody_ *repairs* HF tools, you just toss them!
>
> I'm going to have a $.99 angle grinder repaired? The guy can't take
> the screws out for that.
Woosh!!!
--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
Posted by Bill Sloman on June 2, 2010, 1:03 pm
> On 1/06/2010 12:25 AM,Bill Slomanwrote:
> >>> Yesterday I heard a radio story about the California School district
> >>> spending $20 million to put solar energy in/on schools.
> >>> I did a Google search and can't find any info.
> >>> The numbers I heard didn't seem cost effective,
> >>> so I'm curious.
> >>> Anybody know more about it?
> >>> Mike
> >> I believe they gave $19 million to Al Gore's efforts, and spent the
> >> remaining million on publicity.
> > The request was for information about what the California School
> > District has done, not an invitation for you to exercise your
> > incompetent imagination.
> > Admittedly, anyone asking for information about a political solar
> > energy initiative here should expect to get answers drawn from the
> > imagination of our resident right-wing nit-wits.
> > A quick google picked upt these initiatives
> >http://solar.coolerplanet.com/News/8110902-fremont-california-school- ...
> >http://www.chevronenergy.com/case_studies/sjusd.asp
> > which do seem to involve expenditure of the order of $20M.
> > At the moment solar energy is only cost-effective if you figure in the
> > uncosted consequences of the CO2 emissions associated with fossil
> > fueled energy generation. Political initiatives that subsidise solar
> > energy generation are designed to fill in that gap, and often a bit
> > more beside, since increasing the market for solar energy
> > installations helps the economies of scale,
> I don't believe in these alleged economies of scale. Solar panels
> already represent a large industry. The economies of scale, such as they
> are, have already been obtained.
The "economies of scale" aren't just the simple stuff, such as when
you ship 100,000 units a year it becomes worth your while to put most
of the electronics into an ASIC. It covers the sort of developments
where people think that the market is big enough to justify developing
a completely different way of making solar cells.
This sort of development is highly speculative and costs tens to
hundreds of millions of dollars by the time you've turned it into a
production line - nobody invests that kind of money until they are
pretty confident about the eventual market.
Economists don't understand any of the technical details - they just
know that as the market for a product expands, the unit cost tends to
halve for every ten-fold expansion in production volume.
The first computer I ever worked with hands-on was a PDP-8. It cost
something like ten times what I was being paid per year at the time.
Nowadays there are single chip processors that are moe powerful that
sell for about what I'd earn in a minute if I could persuade someone
to hime me. Solar panels need area in a way that processors don't, but
they are going to get a lot cheaper to make and a lot easier to mount
(perhaps as stick-on films).
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Posted by Sylvia Else on June 3, 2010, 7:37 am
On 2/06/2010 11:03 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>> On 1/06/2010 12:25 AM,Bill Slomanwrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> Yesterday I heard a radio story about the California School district
>>>>> spending $20 million to put solar energy in/on schools.
>>>>> I did a Google search and can't find any info.
>>>>> The numbers I heard didn't seem cost effective,
>>>>> so I'm curious.
>>>>> Anybody know more about it?
>>>>> Mike
>>
>>>> I believe they gave $19 million to Al Gore's efforts, and spent the
>>>> remaining million on publicity.
>>
>>> The request was for information about what the California School
>>> District has done, not an invitation for you to exercise your
>>> incompetent imagination.
>>
>>> Admittedly, anyone asking for information about a political solar
>>> energy initiative here should expect to get answers drawn from the
>>> imagination of our resident right-wing nit-wits.
>>
>>> A quick google picked upt these initiatives
>>
>>> http://solar.coolerplanet.com/News/8110902-fremont-california-school- ...
>>
>>> http://www.chevronenergy.com/case_studies/sjusd.asp
>>
>>> which do seem to involve expenditure of the order of $20M.
>>
>>> At the moment solar energy is only cost-effective if you figure in the
>>> uncosted consequences of the CO2 emissions associated with fossil
>>> fueled energy generation. Political initiatives that subsidise solar
>>> energy generation are designed to fill in that gap, and often a bit
>>> more beside, since increasing the market for solar energy
>>> installations helps the economies of scale,
>>
>> I don't believe in these alleged economies of scale. Solar panels
>> already represent a large industry. The economies of scale, such as they
>> are, have already been obtained.
> The "economies of scale" aren't just the simple stuff, such as when
> you ship 100,000 units a year it becomes worth your while to put most
> of the electronics into an ASIC. It covers the sort of developments
> where people think that the market is big enough to justify developing
> a completely different way of making solar cells.
Inventing a different technology is not an economy of scale, and there's
no guarantee that it will materialise.
> This sort of development is highly speculative and costs tens to
> hundreds of millions of dollars by the time you've turned it into a
> production line - nobody invests that kind of money until they are
> pretty confident about the eventual market.
> Economists don't understand any of the technical details - they just
> know that as the market for a product expands, the unit cost tends to
> halve for every ten-fold expansion in production volume.
> The first computer I ever worked with hands-on was a PDP-8. It cost
> something like ten times what I was being paid per year at the time.
> Nowadays there are single chip processors that are moe powerful that
> sell for about what I'd earn in a minute if I could persuade someone
> to hime me. Solar panels need area in a way that processors don't, but
> they are going to get a lot cheaper to make and a lot easier to mount
> (perhaps as stick-on films).
> --
> Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
So why do car bateries still cost so much?
Sylvia.
Posted by Ahem A Rivet's Shot on June 3, 2010, 6:49 pm
On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 17:37:02 +1000
> So why do car bateries still cost so much?
Because car batteries are a mature technology that hasn't changed
much in the last half century. Digital electronics is a fast changing
technology with huge demand to drive development. Photovoltaics is a
changing technology with a relatively small but growing demand - many
companies are working on improving the manufacturing technology which is
why we see vacuum sputtered thin film, string ribbon and even roll to roll
printing being developed as manufacturing processes.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
>>
>> wrote:
>> > "m...@sushi.com" wrote:
>> >
>> > > Seriously, would you trust a Harbor Freight solar cell? I don't buy
>> > > anything from that store that needs to plug into the mains.
>> >
>> > That's your choice. Buy whatever turns your crank. I have several
>> > power tools I bought there, and they do exactly what I bought them to
>> > do. Several work better than the Craftsman crap they replaced. They
>> > should change their name to Crapsman.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
>> > have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.
>>
>> I was in HF one day when a guy returned a reciprocating saw. It caught
>> fire. Need I say more!
> Yes. You have no details, just a burnt saw. I've seen a lot of
>brands burn up over the last 40+ years. Have you ever walked into a
>tool repair business? Not one burnt up harbor freight tool, but just
>about any other brand you can imagine are waiting for parts.