Posted by nospam on February 7, 2010, 12:59 pm
Curbie wrote:
> Jim,
>
> I think I understand your Lear point, he was getting results but
> mischaracterize HOW those results where achieved and when people
> followed the mischaracterizations their results where random and a lot
> effort was wasted.
>
> My interest is in following tried and true technologies and to that
> end I was half-settled on ethanol for no other reason then it's what I
> know best (racing with methanol), but in talking with people on-line
> about DIY production of ethanol people suggest alternatives like SVO
> or bio-diesel as being a better option, but their reasons for their
> selection was kind of the same as mine, what they knew best.
>
> In thinking about their reason for their choice it seemed silly, but
> occurred to me that I had the same silly reason for my choice and had
> better study all three processes to base my choice on something of
> substance.
>
> That was the reason for starting my spread-sheet, just compile all the
> information I've accumulated on fuels over the years into one
> spread-sheet for comparison, simple. In doing that the numbers were
> not jiving and that lead to my attempt to calculate for the numbers,
> not so simple.
>
> I've never worried too much about a "wild goose chase" because I
> always seem to learn something of value in the process, I know that
> two of these three technologies will turn out to be wild goose chases,
> but I expect the effort to narrow my focus on the one technology that
> best suits my needs.
>
> I know the calculations in my spread-sheet are close, but since this
> is the start (or foundation) they better be right here or they will
> become progressively inaccurate as I build on them. I talk on-line in
> a lot of different places and sometimes find people who have knowledge
> I don't, but are interested in the same results, and I've found it
> never hurts to ask.
>
> I'm retired too, so a have time new to play with things I'm interested
> in, and I'm not inventing any new wheels, just trying to determine the
> best beaten path to follow.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Curbie
>
>
Wouldn't be better just experiment with SVO (straight veggie oil) and
avoid everything but growing the crop and pressing the Oil?
Posted by Curbie on February 7, 2010, 3:06 pm
>Wouldn't be better just experiment with SVO (straight veggie oil) and avoid
everything but growing the crop and pressing the Oil?
Exactly my point! I don't know the answer, but I better find it out
before I select an option. I can see where the mostly mechanical
process of SVO would have some advantages for someone from the view
point of simplicity, but I believe given a little time and practice,
I'll be able to follow the beaten path for any one of the three
options, so in my view the "Best" question becomes which option gives
the best return of investment.
From the stand point of crop yields ethanol has a clear advantage, but
then considering energy density of yielded units, oil crops narrow the
gap. When I look at time, material, and energy costs for all three
options the clarity goes away.
Curbie
Posted by Jim Wilkins on February 7, 2010, 1:57 pm
> ...
> That was the reason for starting my spread-sheet, just compile all the
> information I've accumulated on fuels over the years into one
> spread-sheet for comparison, simple. In doing that the numbers were
> not jiving and that lead to my attempt to calculate for the numbers,
> not so simple....
> Curbie
I believe you are headed in the right direction, your spreadsheet is
necessary but insufficient. My guess is that your biggest hurdle will
be leaky pipe joints rather than the relative theoretical merits of
various fuels.
jsw
Posted by Curbie on February 7, 2010, 3:43 pm
Jim,
I think your right with the leaky joint analogy, but I want to focus
on building or fixing leaky joints with the commitment that for me
comes from the knowledge that I chosen the best option. Just because
the spread-sheet says one option has a better energy density, doesn't
mean that option will be the most cost effective path, although I
think a spread-sheet will help there too.
One step at a time.
Curbie
Posted by Jim Wilkins on February 7, 2010, 6:52 pm
> Jim,
> I think your right with the leaky joint analogy, but I want to focus
> on building or fixing leaky joints with the commitment that for me
> comes from the knowledge that I chosen the best option. Just because
> the spread-sheet says one option has a better energy density, doesn't
> mean that option will be the most cost effective path, although I
> think a spread-sheet will help there too.
> One step at a time.
> Curbie
I'm not a chemical engineer, but I understand that they proceed from a
lab trial to a pilot to the full-sized process. They start by making
small batches and don't go to the final continuous design until they
are sure it will work.
You could do the same, buy some raw material and try making a liter or
so of fuel, then test it for viscosity, wax point, ash residue,
sulphur content, etc. Those are easy to do and I have an old lab
manual that describes them.
http://www.powerservice.com/fuel_testing/cfpp_flash.asp
jsw
XML site map
>
> I think I understand your Lear point, he was getting results but
> mischaracterize HOW those results where achieved and when people
> followed the mischaracterizations their results where random and a lot
> effort was wasted.
>
> My interest is in following tried and true technologies and to that
> end I was half-settled on ethanol for no other reason then it's what I
> know best (racing with methanol), but in talking with people on-line
> about DIY production of ethanol people suggest alternatives like SVO
> or bio-diesel as being a better option, but their reasons for their
> selection was kind of the same as mine, what they knew best.
>
> In thinking about their reason for their choice it seemed silly, but
> occurred to me that I had the same silly reason for my choice and had
> better study all three processes to base my choice on something of
> substance.
>
> That was the reason for starting my spread-sheet, just compile all the
> information I've accumulated on fuels over the years into one
> spread-sheet for comparison, simple. In doing that the numbers were
> not jiving and that lead to my attempt to calculate for the numbers,
> not so simple.
>
> I've never worried too much about a "wild goose chase" because I
> always seem to learn something of value in the process, I know that
> two of these three technologies will turn out to be wild goose chases,
> but I expect the effort to narrow my focus on the one technology that
> best suits my needs.
>
> I know the calculations in my spread-sheet are close, but since this
> is the start (or foundation) they better be right here or they will
> become progressively inaccurate as I build on them. I talk on-line in
> a lot of different places and sometimes find people who have knowledge
> I don't, but are interested in the same results, and I've found it
> never hurts to ask.
>
> I'm retired too, so a have time new to play with things I'm interested
> in, and I'm not inventing any new wheels, just trying to determine the
> best beaten path to follow.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Curbie
>
>