Posted by sno on February 13, 2010, 1:55 am
On 2/12/2010 8:30 PM, ghio wrote:
>> On 2/12/2010 1:10 AM, westom wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>> I had a new switch box installed last year and wire was completely
>>>> replaced....so probably not a wiring problem, in addition have not had
>>>> relay last in all the time have had the pump....
>>
>>> Wire means every part of the cable from breaker box to the pump.
>>> For example, is the connection to the circuit breaker loose? Then a
>>> meter would report a constant lower voltage to the pump. That low
>>> voltage means the pump draws a larger startup current.
>>
>>> If the weakened or defective wiring is in the well, then only a
>>> current measurement might show a result. But that means you know what
>>> a normal startup current is. Not something a digit meter will
>>> measure.
>>
>>> If the pump was working without contact failure for 15 years, then
>>> another reason for failure - wire gauge too thin for that distance and
>>> pump - probably is not a suspect.
>>
>>> The troubling part. Why is that pressure switch good enough for
>>> hundreds of thousands of other pumps just like yours? Why do those
>>> other 100,000 switch contacts no need a snubber? Start by suspecting
>>> the snubber is only 'curing a symptom'. Or is the new switch grossly
>>> undersized for that pump (especially if it is deeper than most)?
>>> Again, an example of why numbers result in more useful replies.
>>
>>> Meanwhile, how often does the pump power cycle in an hour?
>>
>> It cycles aprox. every 1.5 minutes....when I have three faucets running
>> (bathroom tub and sink faucets full on) the pump runs continuous....that
>> works out to 960 cycles per day....28800 per month....during winter
>> about 3 months...86400 cycles..
>> which works out to somewhere between 50,000 to 100,000 per year....about
>> the 100,000 is rated for....so as I suspected, reason for not lasting is
>> the water running in winter....
>>
>> If snubber works should greatly extend the life...
>>
>> thank you for your help....have fun....sno
> First off, a look at problem solving;
> When things go wrong they seem to do so with a twisted sort of
> maleviolent
> vengeance. Problem piled on mistake compounded by silliness raised to
> catastrophe may sound familiar to many of us.
> So how do these things happen? Well, in many cases we do them to
> ourselves. It has to do with mind set and reaction. We see a problem
> and
> react to it.
> As an example let's look at a problem that arose just this weekend. I
> had
> been to Bill's to install a new battery charger for his solar power
> system. To
> set the scene this system was installed by the previous owner. Bill
> bought
> the house and the system connected to it. Now, while the previous
> owner
> knew what he had done he never documented it.
> During the installation of a new battery charger I had to disconnect
> the
> alternator, which had been the battery charger up to this point. To
> cut
> this long story short, by disconnecting the alternator I had also
> unknowingly
> disabled the starting circuit for the diesel generator.
> That night I got a call to say that the generator would not start.
> Well,
> okay, this was my fault. I went right then to fix this problem. Yes,
> this is
> the Problem which is piled on the Mistake.
> Right. Problem solved and the generator is running again. The new
> battery charger is working great and pumping fifty amps into the
> batteries.
> At this point there are some who will have noticed that the equation
> "Problem piled on mistake compounded by silliness raised to
> catastrophe" is
> not finished.
> Late the next day I get a phone call to say that Bill's twelve volt
> fridge has
> ceased to function and has defrosted itself. I suggested that the
> first thing
> to check was that there was power to the socket that the fridge is
> plugged
> into. Answer is - No, but when the fridge is plugged into another
> socket on
> the other side it works.
> Later that same day I get a phone call. The twelve volt lights in the
> lounge room do not work. As you can see the equation is still running.
> I go over the possible problems with Bill, check the fuses, check for
> power
> at the fuse box and so forth. The upshot is that the fuses are ok but
> there
> is no power to the lighting circuit. You have got to understand. This
> is not
> right. In fact it is just plain silly. It's the sort of thing that can
> reduce a
> grown man to a gibbering fool in a very short space of time. What we
> are
> talking about is "Wandering circuit failure".
> Well we now have the full equation. Problem (generator does not start)
> piled on mistake (generator starter disconnected) compounded by
> silliness
> (we will get to this in a moment) raised to catastrophe (fridge full
> of food
> defrosted).
> Evening day three. I get a phone call from Bill. Everything is all
> right.
> Silliness, it seems that Bill has had guests over for the weekend. At
> some
> time during the weekend someone turned off the master switch for the
> lights
> in the lounge room. Which, would you believe it, includes the circuit
> for the
> fridge.
> Now I am not poking fun at Bill. The point I am making is that when
> you start looking for solutions to problems, such as lights or other
> appliances
> failing to work or in fact any other problem, always start with the
> simplest
> solution. i.e. Turn on the switch. I know it sounds stupid but we all
> do it.
> A problem comes up and we forget the simple solutions. Maybe it is the
> fact
> that the growth of technology has led us to be too technical in our
> search for
> the answers to problems. Like the song says `Slow down, you move too
> fast,
> you've got to make the morning last.'
> Don't jump to conclusions. Walk through the problem from the beginning
> to the end. If a light fails to work, check the light first, then the
> socket, then
> the wire, then the switch. . . etc.
> Now if I could just remember this advice I would be a much calmer
> person.
> Ok, your problem of short lived relay contacts.
> It would seem, on quiet reflection, that you are trying to fix a
> symptom rather than the cause.
> From what you have said, with all the taps turned off, your pump
> cycles every 90 seconds.
> Possible causes:
> 1) Leak in water system. In a frost prone are this is a common problem
> due to thermal cycling of joints.
> 2) Flooded pressure tank. This is also a common problem, which is why
> many pressure tanks have a recharge port on them.
> 3) Both of the above.
> Explanation; System is water pump and pressure tank. If water system
> leaks then the pump will cycle whenever the pressure drops below the
> preset low pressure point. In the case of a flooded pressure tank
> there is not enough compressed gas to maintain pressure above the
> preset low pressure point.
> Either or both of these two problems can and will cause excessive
> cycling.
You have to go back and read the whole thread....I keep tap running all
winter to prevent freeze up...cannot bury pipes deep enough to keep them
from freezing...I only heat/live in one room in winter so pipes run
through furthest wall can freeze. As figured out everything is ok
except running the water all winter causes to many cycles of
relay...causing replacing of relay (burnt contacts) about every 1.5/2 yrs.
LOL....what you are talking about everyone who works with electricity
for any length of time has discovered....first make sure it is plugged
in....second turn on all switches....<grin>
third remember electricity is really magic...<grin>...and sometimes what
seems like the impossible can happen....
have fun......sno
Posted by ghio on February 13, 2010, 1:15 pm
> On 2/12/2010 8:30 PM, ghio wrote:
> >> On 2/12/2010 1:10 AM, westom wrote:
> >>>> I had a new switch box installed last year and wire was completely
> >>>> replaced....so probably not a wiring problem, in addition have not had
> >>>> relay last in all the time have had the pump....
> >>> Wire means every part of the cable from breaker box to the pump.
> >>> For example, is the connection to the circuit breaker loose? Then a
> >>> meter would report a constant lower voltage to the pump. That low
> >>> voltage means the pump draws a larger startup current.
> >>> If the weakened or defective wiring is in the well, then only a
> >>> current measurement might show a result. But that means you know what
> >>> a normal startup current is. Not something a digit meter will
> >>> measure.
> >>> If the pump was working without contact failure for 15 years, then
> >>> another reason for failure - wire gauge too thin for that distance and
> >>> pump - probably is not a suspect.
> >>> The troubling part. Why is that pressure switch good enough for
> >>> hundreds of thousands of other pumps just like yours? Why do those
> >>> other 100,000 switch contacts no need a snubber? Start by suspecting
> >>> the snubber is only 'curing a symptom'. Or is the new switch grossly
> >>> undersized for that pump (especially if it is deeper than most)?
> >>> Again, an example of why numbers result in more useful replies.
> >>> Meanwhile, how often does the pump power cycle in an hour?
> >> It cycles aprox. every 1.5 minutes....when I have three faucets running
> >> (bathroom tub and sink faucets full on) the pump runs continuous....that
> >> works out to 960 cycles per day....28800 per month....during winter
> >> about 3 months...86400 cycles..
> >> which works out to somewhere between 50,000 to 100,000 per year....about
> >> the 100,000 is rated for....so as I suspected, reason for not lasting is
> >> the water running in winter....
> >> If snubber works should greatly extend the life...
> >> thank you for your help....have fun....sno
> > First off, a look at problem solving;
> > When things go wrong they seem to do so with a twisted sort of
> > maleviolent
> > vengeance. Problem piled on mistake compounded by silliness raised to
> > catastrophe may sound familiar to many of us.
> > So how do these things happen? Well, in many cases we do them to
> > ourselves. It has to do with mind set and reaction. We see a problem
> > and
> > react to it.
> > As an example let's look at a problem that arose just this weekend. I
> > had
> > been to Bill's to install a new battery charger for his solar power
> > system. To
> > set the scene this system was installed by the previous owner. Bill
> > bought
> > the house and the system connected to it. Now, while the previous
> > owner
> > knew what he had done he never documented it.
> > During the installation of a new battery charger I had to disconnect
> > the
> > alternator, which had been the battery charger up to this point. To
> > cut
> > this long story short, by disconnecting the alternator I had also
> > unknowingly
> > disabled the starting circuit for the diesel generator.
> > That night I got a call to say that the generator would not start.
> > Well,
> > okay, this was my fault. I went right then to fix this problem. Yes,
> > this is
> > the Problem which is piled on the Mistake.
> > Right. Problem solved and the generator is running again. The new
> > battery charger is working great and pumping fifty amps into the
> > batteries.
> > At this point there are some who will have noticed that the equation
> > "Problem piled on mistake compounded by silliness raised to
> > catastrophe" is
> > not finished.
> > Late the next day I get a phone call to say that Bill's twelve volt
> > fridge has
> > ceased to function and has defrosted itself. I suggested that the
> > first thing
> > to check was that there was power to the socket that the fridge is
> > plugged
> > into. Answer is - No, but when the fridge is plugged into another
> > socket on
> > the other side it works.
> > Later that same day I get a phone call. The twelve volt lights in the
> > lounge room do not work. As you can see the equation is still running.
> > I go over the possible problems with Bill, check the fuses, check for
> > power
> > at the fuse box and so forth. The upshot is that the fuses are ok but
> > there
> > is no power to the lighting circuit. You have got to understand. This
> > is not
> > right. In fact it is just plain silly. It's the sort of thing that can
> > reduce a
> > grown man to a gibbering fool in a very short space of time. What we
> > are
> > talking about is "Wandering circuit failure".
> > Well we now have the full equation. Problem (generator does not start)
> > piled on mistake (generator starter disconnected) compounded by
> > silliness
> > (we will get to this in a moment) raised to catastrophe (fridge full
> > of food
> > defrosted).
> > Evening day three. I get a phone call from Bill. Everything is all
> > right.
> > Silliness, it seems that Bill has had guests over for the weekend. At
> > some
> > time during the weekend someone turned off the master switch for the
> > lights
> > in the lounge room. Which, would you believe it, includes the circuit
> > for the
> > fridge.
> > Now I am not poking fun at Bill. The point I am making is that when
> > you start looking for solutions to problems, such as lights or other
> > appliances
> > failing to work or in fact any other problem, always start with the
> > simplest
> > solution. i.e. Turn on the switch. I know it sounds stupid but we all
> > do it.
> > A problem comes up and we forget the simple solutions. Maybe it is the
> > fact
> > that the growth of technology has led us to be too technical in our
> > search for
> > the answers to problems. Like the song says `Slow down, you move too
> > fast,
> > you've got to make the morning last.'
> > Don't jump to conclusions. Walk through the problem from the beginning
> > to the end. If a light fails to work, check the light first, then the
> > socket, then
> > the wire, then the switch. . . etc.
> > Now if I could just remember this advice I would be a much calmer
> > person.
> > Ok, your problem of short lived relay contacts.
> > It would seem, on quiet reflection, that you are trying to fix a
> > symptom rather than the cause.
> > From what you have said, with all the taps turned off, your pump
> > cycles every 90 seconds.
> > Possible causes:
> > 1) Leak in water system. In a frost prone are this is a common problem
> > due to thermal cycling of joints.
> > 2) Flooded pressure tank. This is also a common problem, which is why
> > many pressure tanks have a recharge port on them.
> > 3) Both of the above.
> > Explanation; System is water pump and pressure tank. If water system
> > leaks then the pump will cycle whenever the pressure drops below the
> > preset low pressure point. In the case of a flooded pressure tank
> > there is not enough compressed gas to maintain pressure above the
> > preset low pressure point.
> > Either or both of these two problems can and will cause excessive
> > cycling.
> You have to go back and read the whole thread....I keep tap running all
> winter to prevent freeze up...cannot bury pipes deep enough to keep them
> from freezing...I only heat/live in one room in winter so pipes run
> through furthest wall can freeze. As figured out everything is ok
> except running the water all winter causes to many cycles of
> relay...causing replacing of relay (burnt contacts) about every 1.5/2 yrs.
> LOL....what you are talking about everyone who works with electricity
> for any length of time has discovered....first make sure it is plugged
> in....second turn on all switches....<grin>
> third remember electricity is really magic...<grin>...and sometimes what
> seems like the impossible can happen....
> have fun......sno
As pointed out, you are treating a symptom. If you are running the
pump and it is cycling then the pressure switch is incorrectly set for
your needs. It would be a fair bet that your pump will not have
enough leeway in the pressure switch setting for your needs you might
consider a remote switch to bypass the pressure switch while you are
only running the pump in "Anti-freeze" mode. As you want to run the
pump to prevent freezing, one could be forgiven for wondering why the
pipes are exposed in such a climate.
As far as what everyone who works with electricity for any length of
time knows, wiring a power point in the kitchen off a lighting circuit
in the lounge room to run the fridge is, well, ludicrous.
Posted by harry k on March 13, 2010, 6:38 pm
> On 2/11/2010 11:14 AM, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
> >> I just replaced my well pump relay due to arcing wearing away the
> >> contacts...
> >> It seems I am replacing the relay about every 1.5 to 2 years...and it
> >> seems to happen always in the middle of winter...it is a bummer to
> >> replace it when the weather is bad...I would like to get maybe 6 more
> >> months out of one....
> >> The pressure tank is fine...I realize that if I get a bigger tank the
> >> pump would cycle less....but do not want to spend the money on a bigger
> >> tank especially when the tank I presently have is good....
> >> I seem to remember something about hooking up a capacitor in some manner
> >> to prevent arcing on relays....does anyone have any ideas or know how to
> >> hook up capacitor...??....and the value that is needed...
> >> or any other tricks...??....the pump is wired to work at 110 volts AC...
> >> thank you for any help....have fun....sno
> > Have you checked the current draw of the pump against its specs? If
> > you have a control box, have you checked it out?
> > Your short relay life is highly unusual in my experience, even the
> > cheapest contactors seem to last a long time. Although I have seen a
> > couple of cases of pressure switches failing every few months, caused
> > by ants. For whatever reason they're drawn to the contacts and
> > immolate themselves. Fix is to move or seal off the switch.
> > Wayne
> I suspect the short life is due to the fact that I have to keep water
> flowing all winter to prevent freezing...is not possible to bury piping
> below frost depth....also during winter heat only one room, pipes in
> house can freeze...(both have frozen in past)....which leads to all
> sorts of problems....<grin>
> have fun.....sno
> --
> Correct Scientific Terminology:
> Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
> Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
> to be generally assumed to be true.
> Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
> in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
> Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
Even running water (trickle) all the time should not be causing it
_unless_ your pump is short cycling. Even that would only add excess
operation cycles to normal and shouldn't shorten life that much.
One of my pet peeves (worked on too many wells of my folks, mine and
my neighbors) is people who install the 'goods' (tank, switch, etc) in
a stupid well house vice inside the house (basement or closet) where
it is easily accessible for service. My neighbor drilled a new well,
installed all new piping into his BASEMENT and then put the tank in a
shed next to the well!! Had to totally insulate that room and run a
light bulb all winter to keep it from freezing.
Harry K
Posted by Morris Dovey on February 14, 2010, 5:19 pm
On 2/11/2010 7:52 AM, sno wrote:
> I just replaced my well pump relay due to arcing wearing away the
> contacts...
<snip>
> thank you for any help....have fun....sno
It seems to me that the real problem is your inability to bury the line
leading from the pressure tank to your house deep enough to prevent it
from freezing.
I'm wondering if you might be able to run that water line through a
larger black plastic pipe through which you feed just enough warm air to
prevent the water in the inner pipe from freezing...
If that's possible, then you not only solve the frozen pipe problem, but
you also solve the problem with the relay and you probably extend the
life of the pump at the same time...
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Posted by Ecnerwal on February 14, 2010, 5:55 pm
> It seems to me that the real problem is your inability to bury the line
> leading from the pressure tank to your house deep enough to prevent it
> from freezing.
>
> I'm wondering if you might be able to run that water line through a
> larger black plastic pipe through which you feed just enough warm air to
> prevent the water in the inner pipe from freezing...
Another option is "inside the pipe heat tape". If it freezes up, turn on
the heat, when it thaws enough for water to flow, turn off the heat
until it freezes again. Probably use a lot less power than running the
pump all the time, too. If you have a septic system, also much better
for that than running water all winter. Works better if you insulate the
waterline.
Of course, if you insulate the waterline with sheet polystyrene (XPS,
waterproof, ground contact, usually pink, blue or green rather than
white) far enough sideways, it's just as effective as burying the pipe
deeper, and uses no power. A pipe with a 4 foot wide sheet of insulation
centered over it (right on top of the pipe) that is then buried 1 foot
deep is effectively the same as burying the pipe 3 feet deep.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
XML site map
>>
>>
>>
>>>> I had a new switch box installed last year and wire was completely
>>>> replaced....so probably not a wiring problem, in addition have not had
>>>> relay last in all the time have had the pump....
>>
>>> Wire means every part of the cable from breaker box to the pump.
>>> For example, is the connection to the circuit breaker loose? Then a
>>> meter would report a constant lower voltage to the pump. That low
>>> voltage means the pump draws a larger startup current.
>>
>>> If the weakened or defective wiring is in the well, then only a
>>> current measurement might show a result. But that means you know what
>>> a normal startup current is. Not something a digit meter will
>>> measure.
>>
>>> If the pump was working without contact failure for 15 years, then
>>> another reason for failure - wire gauge too thin for that distance and
>>> pump - probably is not a suspect.
>>
>>> The troubling part. Why is that pressure switch good enough for
>>> hundreds of thousands of other pumps just like yours? Why do those
>>> other 100,000 switch contacts no need a snubber? Start by suspecting
>>> the snubber is only 'curing a symptom'. Or is the new switch grossly
>>> undersized for that pump (especially if it is deeper than most)?
>>> Again, an example of why numbers result in more useful replies.
>>
>>> Meanwhile, how often does the pump power cycle in an hour?
>>
>> It cycles aprox. every 1.5 minutes....when I have three faucets running
>> (bathroom tub and sink faucets full on) the pump runs continuous....that
>> works out to 960 cycles per day....28800 per month....during winter
>> about 3 months...86400 cycles..
>> which works out to somewhere between 50,000 to 100,000 per year....about
>> the 100,000 is rated for....so as I suspected, reason for not lasting is
>> the water running in winter....
>>
>> If snubber works should greatly extend the life...
>>
>> thank you for your help....have fun....sno
> First off, a look at problem solving;
> When things go wrong they seem to do so with a twisted sort of
> maleviolent
> vengeance. Problem piled on mistake compounded by silliness raised to
> catastrophe may sound familiar to many of us.
> So how do these things happen? Well, in many cases we do them to
> ourselves. It has to do with mind set and reaction. We see a problem
> and
> react to it.
> As an example let's look at a problem that arose just this weekend. I
> had
> been to Bill's to install a new battery charger for his solar power
> system. To
> set the scene this system was installed by the previous owner. Bill
> bought
> the house and the system connected to it. Now, while the previous
> owner
> knew what he had done he never documented it.
> During the installation of a new battery charger I had to disconnect
> the
> alternator, which had been the battery charger up to this point. To
> cut
> this long story short, by disconnecting the alternator I had also
> unknowingly
> disabled the starting circuit for the diesel generator.
> That night I got a call to say that the generator would not start.
> Well,
> okay, this was my fault. I went right then to fix this problem. Yes,
> this is
> the Problem which is piled on the Mistake.
> Right. Problem solved and the generator is running again. The new
> battery charger is working great and pumping fifty amps into the
> batteries.
> At this point there are some who will have noticed that the equation
> "Problem piled on mistake compounded by silliness raised to
> catastrophe" is
> not finished.
> Late the next day I get a phone call to say that Bill's twelve volt
> fridge has
> ceased to function and has defrosted itself. I suggested that the
> first thing
> to check was that there was power to the socket that the fridge is
> plugged
> into. Answer is - No, but when the fridge is plugged into another
> socket on
> the other side it works.
> Later that same day I get a phone call. The twelve volt lights in the
> lounge room do not work. As you can see the equation is still running.
> I go over the possible problems with Bill, check the fuses, check for
> power
> at the fuse box and so forth. The upshot is that the fuses are ok but
> there
> is no power to the lighting circuit. You have got to understand. This
> is not
> right. In fact it is just plain silly. It's the sort of thing that can
> reduce a
> grown man to a gibbering fool in a very short space of time. What we
> are
> talking about is "Wandering circuit failure".
> Well we now have the full equation. Problem (generator does not start)
> piled on mistake (generator starter disconnected) compounded by
> silliness
> (we will get to this in a moment) raised to catastrophe (fridge full
> of food
> defrosted).
> Evening day three. I get a phone call from Bill. Everything is all
> right.
> Silliness, it seems that Bill has had guests over for the weekend. At
> some
> time during the weekend someone turned off the master switch for the
> lights
> in the lounge room. Which, would you believe it, includes the circuit
> for the
> fridge.
> Now I am not poking fun at Bill. The point I am making is that when
> you start looking for solutions to problems, such as lights or other
> appliances
> failing to work or in fact any other problem, always start with the
> simplest
> solution. i.e. Turn on the switch. I know it sounds stupid but we all
> do it.
> A problem comes up and we forget the simple solutions. Maybe it is the
> fact
> that the growth of technology has led us to be too technical in our
> search for
> the answers to problems. Like the song says `Slow down, you move too
> fast,
> you've got to make the morning last.'
> Don't jump to conclusions. Walk through the problem from the beginning
> to the end. If a light fails to work, check the light first, then the
> socket, then
> the wire, then the switch. . . etc.
> Now if I could just remember this advice I would be a much calmer
> person.
> Ok, your problem of short lived relay contacts.
> It would seem, on quiet reflection, that you are trying to fix a
> symptom rather than the cause.
> From what you have said, with all the taps turned off, your pump
> cycles every 90 seconds.
> Possible causes:
> 1) Leak in water system. In a frost prone are this is a common problem
> due to thermal cycling of joints.
> 2) Flooded pressure tank. This is also a common problem, which is why
> many pressure tanks have a recharge port on them.
> 3) Both of the above.
> Explanation; System is water pump and pressure tank. If water system
> leaks then the pump will cycle whenever the pressure drops below the
> preset low pressure point. In the case of a flooded pressure tank
> there is not enough compressed gas to maintain pressure above the
> preset low pressure point.
> Either or both of these two problems can and will cause excessive
> cycling.