On 05/06/2012 04:44 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:
> On 5/5/12 11:43 AM, Tom P wrote:
>> Maybe there's some other technology, but the bottom line is that it
>> seems you have a lot of neutrons to look after, and this doesn't really
>> sound like a sound DIY project to me.
>> Can someone comment? Are my numbers all wrong?
> Everybody can comment. ;-)
> I'm doing an amateur investigation of one of the "other reactions" -
> specifically the Ni/H reaction with which Andrea Rossi (and a few
> others) have claimed to produce heat output in excess of heat input, and
> with which Rossi has claimed to produce a self-sustaining reaction.
> You can find all that is publicly known buried under heaps of ignorant
> speculation by doing a Google search on Rossi+ECat+LENR.
> There appears to be a growing acceptance in the physics community that
> there's /some/ kind of nuclear reaction taking place, but I haven't seen
> any movement toward consensus concerning reaction specifics.
> I don't have much interest in the physics. I have need of a compact heat
> source that can operate for extended periods of time in a third-world
> context without a reliable fuel distribution network, and am
> willing/able to expend a limited amount of personal resource to discover
> whether or not a Ni/H LENR can satisfy my requirement.
> Since it's one of your concerns, Rossi and all of the observers have
> reported that radiation is not a problem, and that the Ni/H reaction
> produces no unstable isotopes. Still, it struck me as prudent to
> incorporate Geiger-Müller detector input and program the controller to
> do an automatic shutdown if a high count (three times a normal
> background peak) is detected in any one-second interval.
> Rossi is claiming to produce about 5kW output from a reactor containing
> 50 grams of fine nickel powder, and it appears that an initial charge of
> hydrogen (~50cc) will run his reactor for 4-5 hours. In one of the
> interview transcripts I read, he said that the 50 grams of nickel would
> power his reactor for about 6 months of operation at that power level.
> It all just begs for testing.
Thanks for the tip. I find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer
There is no way you can get any net energy out of a reaction between
hydrogen and nickel, either nuclear or otherwise. If it's chemical just
work out how much energy you need to produce atomic hydrogen.
If it's nuclear, then work out the precise atomic weights and binding
energies.
Naturally occurring nickel (Ni) is composed of five stable isotopes;
58Ni, 60Ni, 61Ni, 62Ni and 64Ni with 58Ni being the most abundant.
There are 29 isotopes of copper. 63Cu and 65Cu are stable, with 63Cu
comprising approximately 69% of naturally occurring copper; they both
have a spin of 3/2.[12] The other isotopes are radioactive, with the
most stable being 67Cu with a half-life of 61.83 hours.[12]
So supposing that the reaction involves stable isotopes, the possible
reactions would seem to be
62Ni28 + H -> 63Cu29 3%
64Ni28 + H -> 65Cu29 0.1%
61Ni28 + D -> 63Cu29 1%
The percentages are the relative natural occurrences of the isotopes.
Deuterium occurs naturally at around 0.015%.
The problem is that all elements around this atomic weight have the
highest binding energies - see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_binding_energy#Nuclear_binding_energy_curve
- this means that it is hard to see how nuclear reactions can produce
any excess energy.
If have yet to find anything published by Rossi that shows how excess
energy can be produced.
On 5/7/12 3:54 PM, Tom P wrote:
> There is no way you can get any net energy out of a reaction between
> hydrogen and nickel, either nuclear or otherwise.
And yet there are reports that being done. I'm not competent to make
this call, but I'm interested enough to want to see for myself. I have a
deep and abiding respect for scientific method - but a lot less for any
kind of claim that 'we know all there is to be known' about this.
> The problem is that all elements around this atomic weight have the
> highest binding energies - this means that it is hard to see how
> nuclear reactions can produce any excess energy.
I agree. I'd already read that (and other) articles...
> If have yet to find anything published by Rossi that shows how excess
> energy can be produced.
Agree again/still. I've been frustrated that Rossi is not, and doesn't
act like, a scientist. OTOH, he doesn't believe that it's in his best
interest to provide full disclosure of his findings or opinions - and
I'm in no position to fault him for that.
--
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/Solar/LENR
http://www.facebook.com/MorrisDovey
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>> Maybe there's some other technology, but the bottom line is that it
>> seems you have a lot of neutrons to look after, and this doesn't really
>> sound like a sound DIY project to me.
>> Can someone comment? Are my numbers all wrong?
> Everybody can comment. ;-)
> I'm doing an amateur investigation of one of the "other reactions" -
> specifically the Ni/H reaction with which Andrea Rossi (and a few
> others) have claimed to produce heat output in excess of heat input, and
> with which Rossi has claimed to produce a self-sustaining reaction.
> You can find all that is publicly known buried under heaps of ignorant
> speculation by doing a Google search on Rossi+ECat+LENR.
> There appears to be a growing acceptance in the physics community that
> there's /some/ kind of nuclear reaction taking place, but I haven't seen
> any movement toward consensus concerning reaction specifics.
> I don't have much interest in the physics. I have need of a compact heat
> source that can operate for extended periods of time in a third-world
> context without a reliable fuel distribution network, and am
> willing/able to expend a limited amount of personal resource to discover
> whether or not a Ni/H LENR can satisfy my requirement.
> Since it's one of your concerns, Rossi and all of the observers have
> reported that radiation is not a problem, and that the Ni/H reaction
> produces no unstable isotopes. Still, it struck me as prudent to
> incorporate Geiger-Müller detector input and program the controller to
> do an automatic shutdown if a high count (three times a normal
> background peak) is detected in any one-second interval.
> Rossi is claiming to produce about 5kW output from a reactor containing
> 50 grams of fine nickel powder, and it appears that an initial charge of
> hydrogen (~50cc) will run his reactor for 4-5 hours. In one of the
> interview transcripts I read, he said that the 50 grams of nickel would
> power his reactor for about 6 months of operation at that power level.
> It all just begs for testing.