Posted by Solar Flare on October 28, 2005, 10:37 pm
Now tell me about your summer this year how many times the temp went below 23
degrees C from June to a few weeks ago. Also, do you have a job and have to get
sleep to perform it?
"Bert Menkveld" <bertATreentronicsDOTcom> wrote in message
> > Depends on your climate. Here in Canada I would have to A/C more heat and
> > moisture out of this concrete mass to make my home comfortable. This means
> > turning the A/C on in late May and not turning it off until Late October
> > or the
> > humidity will settle in and take days of continuous running to recover the
> > comfort again.
> >
> > We get some nice weather too where we like to open windows and you wouldnt
> > be
> > able to for fear of a hot day again. Quicker response is in order which
> > means
> > low thermal mass. For dry climates/desert climates where hot during day
> > and cold
> > at night thermal mass is desired to average out the temps.
> I don't know where you are in Canada. I live in Ontario, near
> Kitchener-Waterloo (about an hour's drive West of Toronto). We have a
> rather old house that's not too well sealed or insulated (we're still
> gradually improving that). However, one interesting feature is that an
> addition was built at some time in the past. This left a brick wall running
> right through the centre of the house. Also, the entire interior is
> finished in plaster over plaster-board, meaning about an inch of cement-like
> material on all the walls. All this seems to provide quite a bit of thermal
> mass.
> We don't run AC (though the house came with a central AC unit). As was
> suggested by somebody else, we simply open the windows in the evening when
> the temperature outside gets below the temperature inside. In the morning,
> we close them again once the outside temperature rises above the inside
> temperature. This certainly does not keep our house as cold as many
> air-conditioned houses are kept during the summer, but it mostly keeps us
> quite comfortable. There are some times when you get several hot days in a
> row without good cooling off at night, and then things get hot and sticky
> inside. However, in our climate, that's typically no more than a week or
> two, and everyone in our family seems to be pretty good at sweating for
> those days. :)
> Of course, right now I'm thinking wistfully of the days of summer as
> night-time temperatures are going below freezing again. We've got a great
> climate -- as long as you like winter more than summer. (I'm a rather poor
> Canadian that way.)
> --
> Bert Menkveld
> >>
> >> I have always been surpised with the differences in building materials
> >> used
> > around the world,
> >> mostly between the US and Northern Europe. Hardly any wood is used in
> >> Northern
> > Europe.
> >>
> >> I live in California now, in a wooden house with little insulation, but I
> >> grew
> > up in Holland,
> >> in the cold/windy lowlands. No AC required there for sure, but
> >> exceptional
> > insulation is
> >> necessary to keep the wind/rain/cold out and still have moderate heating
> >> cost.
> >> Lumber is expensive in this small, densely populated country, but plenty
> >> of
> > rivers and thus
> >> brick and concrete are the materials of choice.
> >>
> >> During the post-war reconstruction, explosive growth in Northern Europe
> > required
> >> low-cost homes that can still withstand the nasty elements. So here is
> >> how
> > they built houses there:
> >>
> >> Put up two-story high concrete walls for the sides of the house, with a
> > triangle-shaped top
> >> where a slanted roof will fit later. Put an entire block of houses up
> > 'sliced-bread' style,
> >> so you use the same concrete form to build identical walls, often 4, 8,
> >> 12 or
> > more in
> >> a block. The forms already have extensions for where electrical wires and
> > outlets need to
> >> indent into the concrete, so you do not need a chainsaw to put the
> >> electrical
> > wires in later.
> >> So most houses share a concrete wall with both neighbors.
> >>
> >> Front and back of the house : pop-in two massive tripple-pane windows, or
> > pre-fab
> >> window/door panels. The big windows brings is a lot of light, which you
> >> need
> > to stay sane
> >> (it's pretty depressive in winter). The double or tripple-pane windows
> >> are
> > great temp insulators.
> >>
> >> To finish the thing off, apply 5 inch or more of (stone wool) insulation
> >> on
> > the (concrete) sides,
> >> and erect an outer wall with mostly brick (or other durable, estetically
> >> sound
> > material).
> >> The front and back are mostly windows, but the 'wall' parts of it (around
> >> the
> > door etc)
> >> are typically finished with brick also.
> >>
> >> Put a (wooden) slanted roof on top, cover with clay-tiles (red or black;
> >> you
> > must have
> >> seen pictures), 10 inch of stone-wood on the inside of the roof, and the
> >> house
> > is closed.
> >>
> >> All in all, this method is extremely energy-efficient, although it was
> >> first
> > first designed
> >> to be a cheap, mass-production process. Not much labor is involved in
> > building, except for laying
> >> the brick of the outer wall. Often they compromise on the amount of brick
> >> by
> > making the
> >> windows larger, to reduce labor cost (and increase natural light in the
> > houses).
> >>
> >> Sheer mass of the double-stone, concrete/brick walls the double/tripple
> >> pane
> > windows
> >> and the 5 inch stone wool insulation keep temperature very stable.
> >> The heater is off during the night, but inside it drops only 10F
> >> (70->60)
> > overnight,
> >> even though outside the wind is hauling at near freezing temps.
> >>
> >> What a difference with my 'standard', poorly insulated, California home,
> >> which
> > costs
> >> three times as much to build as compared to a similar size home in
> >> Holland,
> > and has
> >> less than half the insulation value.
> >>
> >> So, I'd say : Concrete is the way to go.
> >>
> >> > The claim is R36 and with concrete poured into it's form R50. Lots of
> > thermal
> >> > mass but when does concrete have an R1.5 per inch? The forms at close
> >> > range
> > do
> >> > nt apear to have 7 inches of foam either. 4 maybe?????
> >> >
> >> > Very quiet from external noise if that is wanted.
> >> >
> >> > There is a lot of rebar to support the complete structure, including
> >> > the
> > second
> >> > floor (if two story) and the forms for the second story before the
> >> > concrete
> > is
> >> > filled in. I don't know how it supported all that beofe the pour.
> >> >
> >> > The wiring is done with a chainsaw, with a depth stop, to make a slot
> >> > into
> > the
> >> > wall, the wiring pressed into it and caulking covering it. The
> >> > electrical
> > boxes
> >> > are special units, extra flat???? and the drywall is then glued on. No
> > vapour
> >> > barrier required. Not sure how the plumbing goes in or how they get
> >> > away
> > with
> >> > wiring that close to the surface let alone the plumbing problems.
> >> >
> >> > They are claiming no A/C will be required...ROFLMFAO
> >> >
> >> > Looks very interesting but a pain to build with all the special items
> >> > and
> >> > related costs. Person in my future neighbourhood has spent all year
> >> > with
> > lots of
> >> > family help building his home while the one beside me started later and
> >> > has
> >> > passed him, working completely alone on a lstandard umber home with
> >> > bigger
> >> > dimensions. To be fair, the lumber home guy is a renovator by trade and
> >> > the
> >> > styrofoam guy is just a financial guy.
> >> >
> >> > When doing a heat loss study, one soons finds out the walls are not the
> > major
> >> > heat loss areas.
> >> >
> >> > The ceilings and floors aren't going to be changed by the walls. It may
> >> > be
> > just
> >> > cheaper to insulate further with lumber construction and foam clad.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > in
> >> >> Does anyone have anything good or bad in building a home out of ICF
> >> >> technology in order to save energy. It seems that this technology
> >> >> brings
> >> >> lots of benefits towards energy savings. This with the addition of
> >> >> solar
> >> >> technology would be a great combination.
> >> >>
> >> >> Any positive or negative comments would be appreciated.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks.
> >> >>
> >> >> Ray
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
Posted by Bert Menkveld on October 31, 2005, 11:23 am
Hi Flare,
Well, yes, I do work for a living, right here in my little home office. It
is primarily thinking work rather than manual labour, so I guess I'm lucky
that way (although my brain does seem to slow down as the temperature climbs
:).
I have not kept stats on temperatures this summer. We did happen to be on
vacation in the Maritimes during the two hottest weeks of July (we were COLD
in Nova Scotia and PEI). For the rest of the summer, we mostly kept
reasonably comfortable with the simple window open/close approach, though we
did have some uncomfortable nights.
Of course, some people have a harder time with being "comfortable" in warm
weather than others. However, it's worth remembering that up until 50 years
ago or so all of humanity lived without mechanical AC.
--
Bert Menkveld
> Now tell me about your summer this year how many times the temp went below
> 23
> degrees C from June to a few weeks ago. Also, do you have a job and have
> to get
> sleep to perform it?
> "Bert Menkveld" <bertATreentronicsDOTcom> wrote in message
>> > Depends on your climate. Here in Canada I would have to A/C more heat
>> > and
>> > moisture out of this concrete mass to make my home comfortable. This
>> > means
>> > turning the A/C on in late May and not turning it off until Late
>> > October
>> > or the
>> > humidity will settle in and take days of continuous running to recover
>> > the
>> > comfort again.
>> >
>> > We get some nice weather too where we like to open windows and you
>> > wouldnt
>> > be
>> > able to for fear of a hot day again. Quicker response is in order which
>> > means
>> > low thermal mass. For dry climates/desert climates where hot during day
>> > and cold
>> > at night thermal mass is desired to average out the temps.
>>
>> I don't know where you are in Canada. I live in Ontario, near
>> Kitchener-Waterloo (about an hour's drive West of Toronto). We have a
>> rather old house that's not too well sealed or insulated (we're still
>> gradually improving that). However, one interesting feature is that an
>> addition was built at some time in the past. This left a brick wall
>> running
>> right through the centre of the house. Also, the entire interior is
>> finished in plaster over plaster-board, meaning about an inch of
>> cement-like
>> material on all the walls. All this seems to provide quite a bit of
>> thermal
>> mass.
>>
>> We don't run AC (though the house came with a central AC unit). As was
>> suggested by somebody else, we simply open the windows in the evening
>> when
>> the temperature outside gets below the temperature inside. In the
>> morning,
>> we close them again once the outside temperature rises above the inside
>> temperature. This certainly does not keep our house as cold as many
>> air-conditioned houses are kept during the summer, but it mostly keeps us
>> quite comfortable. There are some times when you get several hot days in
>> a
>> row without good cooling off at night, and then things get hot and sticky
>> inside. However, in our climate, that's typically no more than a week or
>> two, and everyone in our family seems to be pretty good at sweating for
>> those days. :)
>>
>> Of course, right now I'm thinking wistfully of the days of summer as
>> night-time temperatures are going below freezing again. We've got a
>> great
>> climate -- as long as you like winter more than summer. (I'm a rather
>> poor
>> Canadian that way.)
>>
>> --
>> Bert Menkveld
Posted by Derek Broughton on October 31, 2005, 1:02 pm
"Bert Menkveld" <bertATreentronicsDOTcom> wrote:
> I have not kept stats on temperatures this summer. We did happen to be on
> vacation in the Maritimes during the two hottest weeks of July (we were
> COLD in Nova Scotia and PEI).
It was _lovely_ here (NS) in the latter half of July. Especially, as
compared to those hellish two weeks we spent in SW Ontario in mid-june!
--
derek
Posted by Solar Flare on October 31, 2005, 6:49 pm
It got worse all summer from June...LOL
This year, Not always.
> "Bert Menkveld" <bertATreentronicsDOTcom> wrote:
> > I have not kept stats on temperatures this summer. We did happen to be on
> > vacation in the Maritimes during the two hottest weeks of July (we were
> > COLD in Nova Scotia and PEI).
> It was _lovely_ here (NS) in the latter half of July. Especially, as
> compared to those hellish two weeks we spent in SW Ontario in mid-june!
> --
> derek
Posted by nospam.clare.nce on October 29, 2005, 2:31 am
On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:28:59 -0400, "Bert Menkveld"
<bertATreentronicsDOTcom> wrote:
>> Depends on your climate. Here in Canada I would have to A/C more heat and
>> moisture out of this concrete mass to make my home comfortable. This means
>> turning the A/C on in late May and not turning it off until Late October
>> or the
>> humidity will settle in and take days of continuous running to recover the
>> comfort again.
>>
>> We get some nice weather too where we like to open windows and you wouldnt
>> be
>> able to for fear of a hot day again. Quicker response is in order which
>> means
>> low thermal mass. For dry climates/desert climates where hot during day
>> and cold
>> at night thermal mass is desired to average out the temps.
>I don't know where you are in Canada. I live in Ontario, near
>Kitchener-Waterloo (about an hour's drive West of Toronto). We have a
>rather old house that's not too well sealed or insulated (we're still
>gradually improving that). However, one interesting feature is that an
>addition was built at some time in the past. This left a brick wall running
>right through the centre of the house. Also, the entire interior is
>finished in plaster over plaster-board, meaning about an inch of cement-like
>material on all the walls. All this seems to provide quite a bit of thermal
>mass.
>We don't run AC (though the house came with a central AC unit). As was
>suggested by somebody else, we simply open the windows in the evening when
>the temperature outside gets below the temperature inside. In the morning,
>we close them again once the outside temperature rises above the inside
>temperature. This certainly does not keep our house as cold as many
>air-conditioned houses are kept during the summer, but it mostly keeps us
>quite comfortable. There are some times when you get several hot days in a
>row without good cooling off at night, and then things get hot and sticky
>inside. However, in our climate, that's typically no more than a week or
>two, and everyone in our family seems to be pretty good at sweating for
>those days. :)
>Of course, right now I'm thinking wistfully of the days of summer as
>night-time temperatures are going below freezing again. We've got a great
>climate -- as long as you like winter more than summer. (I'm a rather poor
>Canadian that way.)
Hey Bert - I grew up just a few blocks from you on Riverside Drive
East. You are down by the old reservoir behind Riverside school,
right?
XML site map
> > moisture out of this concrete mass to make my home comfortable. This means
> > turning the A/C on in late May and not turning it off until Late October
> > or the
> > humidity will settle in and take days of continuous running to recover the
> > comfort again.
> >
> > We get some nice weather too where we like to open windows and you wouldnt
> > be
> > able to for fear of a hot day again. Quicker response is in order which
> > means
> > low thermal mass. For dry climates/desert climates where hot during day
> > and cold
> > at night thermal mass is desired to average out the temps.
> I don't know where you are in Canada. I live in Ontario, near
> Kitchener-Waterloo (about an hour's drive West of Toronto). We have a
> rather old house that's not too well sealed or insulated (we're still
> gradually improving that). However, one interesting feature is that an
> addition was built at some time in the past. This left a brick wall running
> right through the centre of the house. Also, the entire interior is
> finished in plaster over plaster-board, meaning about an inch of cement-like
> material on all the walls. All this seems to provide quite a bit of thermal
> mass.
> We don't run AC (though the house came with a central AC unit). As was
> suggested by somebody else, we simply open the windows in the evening when
> the temperature outside gets below the temperature inside. In the morning,
> we close them again once the outside temperature rises above the inside
> temperature. This certainly does not keep our house as cold as many
> air-conditioned houses are kept during the summer, but it mostly keeps us
> quite comfortable. There are some times when you get several hot days in a
> row without good cooling off at night, and then things get hot and sticky
> inside. However, in our climate, that's typically no more than a week or
> two, and everyone in our family seems to be pretty good at sweating for
> those days. :)
> Of course, right now I'm thinking wistfully of the days of summer as
> night-time temperatures are going below freezing again. We've got a great
> climate -- as long as you like winter more than summer. (I'm a rather poor
> Canadian that way.)
> --
> Bert Menkveld
> >>
> >> I have always been surpised with the differences in building materials
> >> used
> > around the world,
> >> mostly between the US and Northern Europe. Hardly any wood is used in
> >> Northern
> > Europe.
> >>
> >> I live in California now, in a wooden house with little insulation, but I
> >> grew
> > up in Holland,
> >> in the cold/windy lowlands. No AC required there for sure, but
> >> exceptional
> > insulation is
> >> necessary to keep the wind/rain/cold out and still have moderate heating
> >> cost.
> >> Lumber is expensive in this small, densely populated country, but plenty
> >> of
> > rivers and thus
> >> brick and concrete are the materials of choice.
> >>
> >> During the post-war reconstruction, explosive growth in Northern Europe
> > required
> >> low-cost homes that can still withstand the nasty elements. So here is
> >> how
> > they built houses there:
> >>
> >> Put up two-story high concrete walls for the sides of the house, with a
> > triangle-shaped top
> >> where a slanted roof will fit later. Put an entire block of houses up
> > 'sliced-bread' style,
> >> so you use the same concrete form to build identical walls, often 4, 8,
> >> 12 or
> > more in
> >> a block. The forms already have extensions for where electrical wires and
> > outlets need to
> >> indent into the concrete, so you do not need a chainsaw to put the
> >> electrical
> > wires in later.
> >> So most houses share a concrete wall with both neighbors.
> >>
> >> Front and back of the house : pop-in two massive tripple-pane windows, or
> > pre-fab
> >> window/door panels. The big windows brings is a lot of light, which you
> >> need
> > to stay sane
> >> (it's pretty depressive in winter). The double or tripple-pane windows
> >> are
> > great temp insulators.
> >>
> >> To finish the thing off, apply 5 inch or more of (stone wool) insulation
> >> on
> > the (concrete) sides,
> >> and erect an outer wall with mostly brick (or other durable, estetically
> >> sound
> > material).
> >> The front and back are mostly windows, but the 'wall' parts of it (around
> >> the
> > door etc)
> >> are typically finished with brick also.
> >>
> >> Put a (wooden) slanted roof on top, cover with clay-tiles (red or black;
> >> you
> > must have
> >> seen pictures), 10 inch of stone-wood on the inside of the roof, and the
> >> house
> > is closed.
> >>
> >> All in all, this method is extremely energy-efficient, although it was
> >> first
> > first designed
> >> to be a cheap, mass-production process. Not much labor is involved in
> > building, except for laying
> >> the brick of the outer wall. Often they compromise on the amount of brick
> >> by
> > making the
> >> windows larger, to reduce labor cost (and increase natural light in the
> > houses).
> >>
> >> Sheer mass of the double-stone, concrete/brick walls the double/tripple
> >> pane
> > windows
> >> and the 5 inch stone wool insulation keep temperature very stable.
> >> The heater is off during the night, but inside it drops only 10F
> >> (70->60)
> > overnight,
> >> even though outside the wind is hauling at near freezing temps.
> >>
> >> What a difference with my 'standard', poorly insulated, California home,
> >> which
> > costs
> >> three times as much to build as compared to a similar size home in
> >> Holland,
> > and has
> >> less than half the insulation value.
> >>
> >> So, I'd say : Concrete is the way to go.
> >>
> >> > The claim is R36 and with concrete poured into it's form R50. Lots of
> > thermal
> >> > mass but when does concrete have an R1.5 per inch? The forms at close
> >> > range
> > do
> >> > nt apear to have 7 inches of foam either. 4 maybe?????
> >> >
> >> > Very quiet from external noise if that is wanted.
> >> >
> >> > There is a lot of rebar to support the complete structure, including
> >> > the
> > second
> >> > floor (if two story) and the forms for the second story before the
> >> > concrete
> > is
> >> > filled in. I don't know how it supported all that beofe the pour.
> >> >
> >> > The wiring is done with a chainsaw, with a depth stop, to make a slot
> >> > into
> > the
> >> > wall, the wiring pressed into it and caulking covering it. The
> >> > electrical
> > boxes
> >> > are special units, extra flat???? and the drywall is then glued on. No
> > vapour
> >> > barrier required. Not sure how the plumbing goes in or how they get
> >> > away
> > with
> >> > wiring that close to the surface let alone the plumbing problems.
> >> >
> >> > They are claiming no A/C will be required...ROFLMFAO
> >> >
> >> > Looks very interesting but a pain to build with all the special items
> >> > and
> >> > related costs. Person in my future neighbourhood has spent all year
> >> > with
> > lots of
> >> > family help building his home while the one beside me started later and
> >> > has
> >> > passed him, working completely alone on a lstandard umber home with
> >> > bigger
> >> > dimensions. To be fair, the lumber home guy is a renovator by trade and
> >> > the
> >> > styrofoam guy is just a financial guy.
> >> >
> >> > When doing a heat loss study, one soons finds out the walls are not the
> > major
> >> > heat loss areas.
> >> >
> >> > The ceilings and floors aren't going to be changed by the walls. It may
> >> > be
> > just
> >> > cheaper to insulate further with lumber construction and foam clad.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > in
> >> >> Does anyone have anything good or bad in building a home out of ICF
> >> >> technology in order to save energy. It seems that this technology
> >> >> brings
> >> >> lots of benefits towards energy savings. This with the addition of
> >> >> solar
> >> >> technology would be a great combination.
> >> >>
> >> >> Any positive or negative comments would be appreciated.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks.
> >> >>
> >> >> Ray
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >