Hybrid Car – More Fun with Less Gas

Is any of this even cost effective yet? - Page 5

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Posted by Morris Dovey on December 18, 2010, 8:32 pm
On 12/18/2010 1:59 PM, Jane_Galt wrote:

It's an already-solved problem. The web page at


shows an early 2007 heating installation that paid for itself before the
end of 2009. If you click on the photo you get a page with installation

The "when" is pretty much up to you.

Morris Dovey


Posted by Curbie on December 18, 2010, 8:39 pm

I couldn't agree more with this IMPORTANT notion, whether it's energy
for domestic heating, or energy for electricity, it all takes money
from the same pocket, and  it seems to me finding the best energy
return-on-investment would be the best idea, regardless of whether
that energy is in the form of heat or electricity.


Posted by m II on December 18, 2010, 7:54 pm
 On 10-12-18 12:06 PM, Jane_Galt wrote:

The bigger panels, around here, are now starting to approach 3 dollars a
watt. The biggest problem and cost is the storage. Batteries are heavy
and expensive. The payback time takes years, if ever, if you include
regular battery replacement. Even with a grid tie system, it takes
forever to break even.

I do it as a learning thing. That, and the fact I can gloat when the
grid shuts down. A freezer full of frozen food helps to offset battery

I've learned I can't use the microwave (130 amp battery draw). You have
to relearn how to cook and use gas or propane. A way of keeping the
luxuries is the use of a big healthy generator running a few hours a
day. You can get your cooking or laundry done and have a battery charger
boosting storage while it's running. I've quit using the electric dryer
and went back to a clothes line.


Posted by Jane_Galt on December 18, 2010, 8:00 pm

One big problem is that the power company doesnt have to pay you the same,
when you send the power back to the grid, as what you paid them for it.
That stinks.


- Jane Galt

"Remember that there is no such dichotomy as 'human rights' versus
'property rights.' No human rights can exist without property rights. Since
material goods are produced by the mind and effort of individual men, and
are needed to sustain their lives, if the producer does not own the result
of his effort, he does not own his life. To deny property rights means to
turn men into property owned by the state. Whoever claims the 'right' to
'redistribute' the wealth produced by others is claiming the 'right' to
treat human beings as chattel." -- Ayn Rand

Posted by Josepi on December 18, 2010, 10:35 pm
 In Ontario they pay you 80.2 cents per kWh and makes a good investment on a
larger scale. A neighbour is installing a 120kW system right now.

Batteries are not allowed and the systems stay fairly simple.
They must be on the roof
There cannot be any other alternate sources included.

I believe most experienced and educated users will tell you the break even
point would be about 40 cents / kWh to even pay the interest on the money
investment loss and make it possible to ever get a payback. Some will tell
you the payback is 6-8 years at 10 cents/kWh but most can't multiply two
numbers together or tell you the difference between power and energy.

Solar thermal is a different beast, cheaper and payback times are much

One big problem is that the power company doesnt have to pay you the same,
when you send the power back to the grid, as what you paid them for it.
- Jane Galt

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