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Learning the difference - Page 2

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Posted by wmbjkREMOVE on June 15, 2007, 7:22 pm
 


On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:20:21 -0700, Anthony Matonak



Sure it would. I bet a lot of people have seen the HF deal on those
cheap panels and wondered about practical uses. Heck, it doesn't even
need to be truly practical since many readers are looking for the
pleasure and education of doable solar. I still get that rush even
after 13 years of living off-grid. I sometimes stand in the shade of
an array during a break from fabricating, marveling at how cool it is
to be able to do so much a dozen miles from power lines. Same thing
when we're watching a good movie at night, with the turbine controller
dumping power even with a few hundred watts total load.


One nitwit might complain, but obviously nobody is listening since
there's a steady stream of posters who've ignored his dopey criticisms
and gone ahead successfully with their projects. So if you have any
other ideas feel free to share them. Think of it this way - judging by
my email, some people read these groups *because* of the sturm und
drang. Your ideas might reach additional readers if they're posted in
one of those threads.  ;-)

Wayne

Posted by George Ghio on June 16, 2007, 12:19 am
 


Ah, the morning comics have arrived. Thank you wayne for brightening my day.

wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net wrote:

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


Posted by George Ghio on June 16, 2007, 12:17 am
 

Todd wrote:

design and installation.

Well, let's face it they

perhaps learn something

learn. Why people want solar

with nothing but the

Nothing. It is perfectly true. Anyone can size and design a solar power system.

be the second best option.

Single string series.

and design that do more

formula.

use them you feel free

Single string series.

purpose built system to meet

There is a difference. Wayne built a system.Then kept throwing money at it until
it would meet his
energy demand, at least during daylight hours.

The other option is to design to the expected load and build a system that that
works to spec from
the moment it is switched on.

toys.

Not exactly the same thing but close enough, to increase production it was
required that a new
assembly line be built.

See above.

I'm not "selling" anything. It is all free to those who are willing to remove
their head from their ass.

Crap. The demand pattern is a total nonsense in a well designed system. Over
this 24 hour period X
kWh is consumed. If the system has the correct capacity who cares when the load
is run.

Except for wayne who must needs do as much while the sun shines as he can.

you like.

Well, 1+1 is a formula that yields the answer of 2.

But of course the formula for the sizing of a solar power system is a little bit
more involved than
this. I can see that you may require help to understand it, but most people
would be able to grasp
the basics in a few minutes.

so far is compatible and

compared to having just built

Yes, use the correct formula to workout your required load in kWh at the
beginning and use only
equipment that fits to the final solution and be prepared to dispose of a large
part of this
equipment in the process of growing a system.

Far cheaper to just design and build the required system.


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


Posted by Todd on June 16, 2007, 4:02 pm
 


design and installation.

Well, let's face it they

perhaps learn something

learn. Why people want solar

with nothing but the

You miss my point. Your first three comments are booga booga ....
don't try this yourself at home boys and girls.

You last comment is "this is all really trivial". So why the first
three comments?

to be the second best option.

I have 10 12V batteries. Is single string series for this 120VDC? If
so, where do I find an inverter that takes 120VDC?  If not, what is
"single string series"?


and design that do more

correct formula.

you use them you feel free

purpose built system to meet

until it would meet his

So this is just a spitting match between you and Wayne?


that works to spec from

You can write a spec and design and build to it perfectly ... and it
can fail because the spec was wrong. That's why even the most
knowledgeable engineers build pilot plants first.


toys.

required that a new

You miss the point again. Even if the auto manufactures had demand of
10,000 cars a day before opening their first plant, they couldn't have
opened a 10K car plant. They didn't have the knowledge. They couldn't
take the risk. In any endeavor, especially new ones, you walk before
you run.


You see above!


their head from their ass.

You sure come off as if you're selling something ... if nothing more
than you are an expert and others should just behave and listen.


this 24 hour period X

load is run.

Oh really? Try this: You are sawing wood remotely from 10:00AM to
2:00PM on sunny days only. You consume 5kWh on days you use the
system. What does the design look like?

Then try this: You are home only in the evening hours when there is no
PV output. You have a small modeling shop and run shop tools 6 hours
each evening. You also have normal micro wave, lighting, and home
entertainment demands. You consume 5kWh per day on average. What does
the design look like?

They're different aren't they?


Right ... everyone has the same demand pattern except Wayne.


you like.



Right. But people not trying to impress with the complexity of their
knowledge base refer to that as addition rather than a formula.


bit more involved than

would be able to grasp

And how is it you can see that? So far, every illustration you have
given is simple addition?


so far is compatible and

compared to having just built

beginning and use only

large part of this

See above. You admit that the demand pattern is not a concern, yet it
is a trivial exercise to show you are wrong.


Actually, probably far more expensive. To design and build the
required system when you don't know what is required (which you have
demonstrated you don't) means you over design the system or it under
performs. An over designed system will always be more expensive than a
scalable system where you add components as you learn the requirements
through real experience. Further, learning by experience can avoid the
folly of buying an expensive PV system when a simple diesel driven
alternator charging the batteries can outperform it at a fraction of
the cost.






Posted by George Ghio on June 17, 2007, 1:10 am
 

Todd wrote:

design and installation.

Well, let's face it they

perhaps learn something

learn. Why people want solar

with nothing but the

system.

You miss the point. Anybody can do it. And at home. And get it right. And save
money in the long run.

The first comment is not to let your wishes get in the way of the truth

The second comment is to not let it go to your head when your head is in fact
empty

The third comment is to beware of smooth talking salesmen who only want your
money and will stroke
your ego to get it.

In short the whole point is that there is no great, dark magic about design of
solar power systems.
Just true and correct numbers and a simple formula.

to be the second best option.

10 X 12V is 120V.

Ask an inverter manufacture that specializes in large grid tied systems.

and design that do more

correct formula.

you use them you feel free

purpose built system to meet

until it would meet his

that works to spec from

IF the spec is wrong. Then you got it wrong and need to learn your limits before
you try again.

The first system I built for myself did not work properly. The fault was
entirely my lack of
knowledge. This was more than twenty years ago, there was no one to guide me and
I believed what
made me feel good rather than the facts.

toys.

required that a new

Yes, you walk through your house doing an energy audit, you walk through the
correct formula, you
walk through selecting the correct equipment, walk through the installation and
turn the system on

setting the parameters for the charge controller and inverter. Put your feet up
and relax.

their head from their ass.

You could say that I'm selling something. The price is $.00

The product is your solar power system sizing and design. In short Knowledge
that allows you to do it.

this 24 hour period X

load is run.

It looks just like the system I use, only larger. I cut wood maybe one day a
week, the system runs
continuously day to day. If I am not there for a day, well, what does it matter.

Exactly the same.

Yeah, pretty much.

you like.

It is still a formula.

bit more involved than

would be able to grasp

Yeah, good isn't it, solar power is so simple it's amazing.

so far is compatible and

compared to having just built

beginning and use only

large part of this

Is it really.

The fact that you believe in a scalable system is just that you want it to be
true. Put yourself in
category one.

--
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