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Posted by JosephKK on July 20, 2008, 4:11 pm
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:53:21 -0700, John Larkin
>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> ..
>>>> John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:25:14 GMT, James Arthur
>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but carbohydrates are so much easier to grow, and even easier
>>>>>> to subsidize. Hence their popularity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofuel
>>>>
>>>> Sugar cane and its relatives are the ones to beat. Nothing else comes
>>>> close yet. We can also grow oil rich plants on marginal land. People
>>>> are playing with Jatropha for this although I don't envy the farmers
>>>> job.
>>>>>
>>>>> About a billion people on this planet get insufficient carbohydrates
>>>>> to meet their body's needs. Burning food in SUVs and airplanes is
>>>>> grotesque. One bushel of corn, 65 pounds, makes a couple of gallons
>>>>> of ethanol. So refilling an Escalade could waste a half of a ton of
>>>>> food.
>>>>
>>>> I am in full agreement with you there. It also drives prices of grain
>>>> up out of reach of the poorest.
>>>>
>>>> Only the power of the US corn lobby could ever have got this one off
>>>> the ground. The end to end energy cost of making alcohol from grain
>>>> including all inputs is pretty awful. You get only about 10-20%
>>>> return if you are lucky. Sugar cane is more than 300% ROI and still
>>>> with scope for improvement.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Martin Brown
>>>
>>> As a diabetic, the potential for a rise in refined sugar prices and
>>> a restriction in its availability, is not too alarming. But still
>>> there is that "Nutrasweet" and some other sugar substitutes have real
>>> sugar as a feed stock. I guess it could be said that the world, as a
>>> whole, can get along without it's main sweetener better than a major
>>> feed stock like corn and soy. The protein that the corn & soy
>>> eventually provides the world will keep people alive, the sugar?
>>>
>>> Luck;
>>> Ken
>>>
>>
>>Ugh, and that nasty High Fructose Corn Syrup. The older I get, the fewer
>>processed foods I eat, not so much because I don't like cereal or so on,
>>but there is so much HFCS in the vast majority of products now that
>>they're inedible to me - I don't know how poeple can stomach the stuff.
>>Even something as simple as a Kaiser roll is now nauseatingly sweet.
>>I've gotten to where I'm starting to even make my own bread, that's how
>>disgusting most of the commercial items have gotten. And obesity is
>>described as being "an epidemic" among even young children. The last
>>thing we need is ever-more HFCS in everything. And studies indicate that
>>it is worse than regular sugar, something to do with it being iether
>>unrecognized ro poorly-recognized by the hormones that signal the brain
>>we're satiated. Not to mention that the hidden sugar only contributes to
>>obesity and type-II diabetes. I mean, why the heck does something like
>>*sausage* "need' to have HFCS added? IMO, it'd be a blessing if that
>>crap was turned into ethanol, because that'd mean less of it would be
>>going into food products.
>>
>>At least, that is my opinionated opinion ;)
>>
>>
>>
>Here, you can buy Mexican cokes, in glass bottles, made with real
>sugar. They're pretty good.
>And sourdough bread is made from flour and water, with maybe a little
>salt.
>At least the trans-fat hydrogenated soybean oil is going away. That
>was really foul.
>John
It seems that you have never baked, let alone with sourdough.
Posted by Michael A. Terrell on July 20, 2008, 4:27 pm
JosephKK wrote:
>
> It seems that you have never baked, let alone with sourdough.
I prefer to use an oven.
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Posted by John Larkin on July 21, 2008, 12:45 am wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:53:21 -0700, John Larkin
>>
>>Here, you can buy Mexican cokes, in glass bottles, made with real
>>sugar. They're pretty good.
>>
>>And sourdough bread is made from flour and water, with maybe a little
>>salt.
>>
>>At least the trans-fat hydrogenated soybean oil is going away. That
>>was really foul.
>>
>>John
>>
>It seems that you have never baked, let alone with sourdough.
How can you conclude that? It's entirely untrue.
I don't bake bread any more. It's a lot of work and mess, and mine
never tastes as good as the stuff I can buy here. But pies, cobblers,
custards, bread pudding, brownies, cookies, muffins, cornbread,
quiche, all still worth the effort.
John
Posted by JosephKK on July 22, 2008, 10:31 pm On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:45:58 -0700, John Larkin
>wrote:
>>On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:53:21 -0700, John Larkin
>>>
>>>Here, you can buy Mexican cokes, in glass bottles, made with real
>>>sugar. They're pretty good.
>>>
>>>And sourdough bread is made from flour and water, with maybe a little
>>>salt.
>>>
>>>At least the trans-fat hydrogenated soybean oil is going away. That
>>>was really foul.
>>>
>>>John
>>>
>>
>>It seems that you have never baked, let alone with sourdough.
>How can you conclude that? It's entirely untrue.
>I don't bake bread any more. It's a lot of work and mess, and mine
>never tastes as good as the stuff I can buy here. But pies, cobblers,
>custards, bread pudding, brownies, cookies, muffins, cornbread,
>quiche, all still worth the effort.
>John
Some form of leavening is common in most baking. Be it yeast,
sourdough, baking powder, baking soda and vinegar, or other.
The leavening content is critical in most breads, and totally excluded
in a few. See also cakes and cookies.
Posted by John Larkin on July 22, 2008, 11:00 pm wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:45:58 -0700, John Larkin
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:53:21 -0700, John Larkin
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>Here, you can buy Mexican cokes, in glass bottles, made with real
>>>>sugar. They're pretty good.
>>>>
>>>>And sourdough bread is made from flour and water, with maybe a little
>>>>salt.
>>>>
>>>>At least the trans-fat hydrogenated soybean oil is going away. That
>>>>was really foul.
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>>
>>>
>>>It seems that you have never baked, let alone with sourdough.
>>
>>How can you conclude that? It's entirely untrue.
>>
>>I don't bake bread any more. It's a lot of work and mess, and mine
>>never tastes as good as the stuff I can buy here. But pies, cobblers,
>>custards, bread pudding, brownies, cookies, muffins, cornbread,
>>quiche, all still worth the effort.
>>
>>John
>Some form of leavening is common in most baking. Be it yeast,
>sourdough, baking powder, baking soda and vinegar, or other.
>The leavening content is critical in most breads, and totally excluded
>in a few. See also cakes and cookies.
>
Sourdough is based on a pH-mediated equilibrium of a yeast and a
bacteria. Legend has it that people journeying West in wagon trains
has their starter yeast go bad, get sour, but they had no way to fix
it. By the time they got to San Francisco, they'd developed a taste
for it. People who make sourdough keep a small starter culture from
the last batch. To make bread, you add flour, water, sometimes a
little salt, let it rise, pinch off a bit for next time, and bake most
of it. In many cases, nothing else has been added for well over 100
years, tens of thousands of generations.
The bacteria outnumber the yeast by numbers cited as between about 20
and 100:1.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_sanfranciscensis
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatisthemicrobiologyofsan.html
John
This Thread
| | |
>>
>>>
>>> ..
>>>> John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:25:14 GMT, James Arthur
>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but carbohydrates are so much easier to grow, and even easier
>>>>>> to subsidize. Hence their popularity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofuel
>>>>
>>>> Sugar cane and its relatives are the ones to beat. Nothing else comes
>>>> close yet. We can also grow oil rich plants on marginal land. People
>>>> are playing with Jatropha for this although I don't envy the farmers
>>>> job.
>>>>>
>>>>> About a billion people on this planet get insufficient carbohydrates
>>>>> to meet their body's needs. Burning food in SUVs and airplanes is
>>>>> grotesque. One bushel of corn, 65 pounds, makes a couple of gallons
>>>>> of ethanol. So refilling an Escalade could waste a half of a ton of
>>>>> food.
>>>>
>>>> I am in full agreement with you there. It also drives prices of grain
>>>> up out of reach of the poorest.
>>>>
>>>> Only the power of the US corn lobby could ever have got this one off
>>>> the ground. The end to end energy cost of making alcohol from grain
>>>> including all inputs is pretty awful. You get only about 10-20%
>>>> return if you are lucky. Sugar cane is more than 300% ROI and still
>>>> with scope for improvement.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Martin Brown
>>>
>>> As a diabetic, the potential for a rise in refined sugar prices and
>>> a restriction in its availability, is not too alarming. But still
>>> there is that "Nutrasweet" and some other sugar substitutes have real
>>> sugar as a feed stock. I guess it could be said that the world, as a
>>> whole, can get along without it's main sweetener better than a major
>>> feed stock like corn and soy. The protein that the corn & soy
>>> eventually provides the world will keep people alive, the sugar?
>>>
>>> Luck;
>>> Ken
>>>
>>
>>Ugh, and that nasty High Fructose Corn Syrup. The older I get, the fewer
>>processed foods I eat, not so much because I don't like cereal or so on,
>>but there is so much HFCS in the vast majority of products now that
>>they're inedible to me - I don't know how poeple can stomach the stuff.
>>Even something as simple as a Kaiser roll is now nauseatingly sweet.
>>I've gotten to where I'm starting to even make my own bread, that's how
>>disgusting most of the commercial items have gotten. And obesity is
>>described as being "an epidemic" among even young children. The last
>>thing we need is ever-more HFCS in everything. And studies indicate that
>>it is worse than regular sugar, something to do with it being iether
>>unrecognized ro poorly-recognized by the hormones that signal the brain
>>we're satiated. Not to mention that the hidden sugar only contributes to
>>obesity and type-II diabetes. I mean, why the heck does something like
>>*sausage* "need' to have HFCS added? IMO, it'd be a blessing if that
>>crap was turned into ethanol, because that'd mean less of it would be
>>going into food products.
>>
>>At least, that is my opinionated opinion ;)
>>
>>
>>
>Here, you can buy Mexican cokes, in glass bottles, made with real
>sugar. They're pretty good.
>And sourdough bread is made from flour and water, with maybe a little
>salt.
>At least the trans-fat hydrogenated soybean oil is going away. That
>was really foul.
>John