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Posted by JosephKK on July 23, 2008, 10:02 pm
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:00:47 -0700, John Larkin
>wrote:
>>On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:45:58 -0700, John Larkin
>>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:53:21 -0700, John Larkin
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Here, you can buy Mexican cokes, in glass bottles, made with real
>>>>>sugar. They're pretty good.
>>>>>
>>>>>And sourdough bread is made from flour and water, with maybe a little
>>>>>salt.
>>>>>
>>>>>At least the trans-fat hydrogenated soybean oil is going away. That
>>>>>was really foul.
>>>>>
>>>>>John
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It seems that you have never baked, let alone with sourdough.
>>>
>>>How can you conclude that? It's entirely untrue.
>>>
>>>I don't bake bread any more. It's a lot of work and mess, and mine
>>>never tastes as good as the stuff I can buy here. But pies, cobblers,
>>>custards, bread pudding, brownies, cookies, muffins, cornbread,
>>>quiche, all still worth the effort.
>>>
>>>John
>>
>>Some form of leavening is common in most baking. Be it yeast,
>>sourdough, baking powder, baking soda and vinegar, or other.
>>The leavening content is critical in most breads, and totally excluded
>>in a few. See also cakes and cookies.
>>
>Sourdough is based on a pH-mediated equilibrium of a yeast and a
>bacteria. Legend has it that people journeying West in wagon trains
>has their starter yeast go bad, get sour, but they had no way to fix
>it. By the time they got to San Francisco, they'd developed a taste
>for it. People who make sourdough keep a small starter culture from
>the last batch. To make bread, you add flour, water, sometimes a
>little salt, let it rise, pinch off a bit for next time, and bake most
>of it. In many cases, nothing else has been added for well over 100
>years, tens of thousands of generations.
>The bacteria outnumber the yeast by numbers cited as between about 20
>and 100:1.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_sanfranciscensis
>http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatisthemicrobiologyofsan.html
>John
It has been known for hundreds of years that the lactobacillus
acidophilus which sours milk and makes cheese is the only culture
involved in normal sourdough and is used straight from the source, the
milk itself. That how a start is made from scratch. Has been so for
centuries.
The sanfranciscensis strain has been feed only flour, water, and a
pinch of salt for i think over 150 years. Treating it that way makes
it very sour, adding milk makes it sweeter. Other than that possible
exception sourdough should not contain any yeast. It would be a
contaminant normally.
Posted by James Arthur on July 24, 2008, 4:55 am
JosephKK wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:00:47 -0700, John Larkin
>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:45:58 -0700, John Larkin wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:11:30 -0700, JosephKK wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:53:21 -0700, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And sourdough bread is made from flour and water, with maybe a little
>>>>>> salt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> It seems that you have never baked, let alone with sourdough.
>>>> How can you conclude that? It's entirely untrue.
>>>>
>>>> I don't bake bread any more. It's a lot of work and mess, and mine
>>>> never tastes as good as the stuff I can buy here. But pies, cobblers,
>>>> custards, bread pudding, brownies, cookies, muffins, cornbread,
>>>> quiche, all still worth the effort.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>> Some form of leavening is common in most baking. Be it yeast,
>>> sourdough, baking powder, baking soda and vinegar, or other.
>>> The leavening content is critical in most breads, and totally excluded
>>> in a few. See also cakes and cookies.
>>>
>> Sourdough is based on a pH-mediated equilibrium of a yeast and a
>> bacteria. Legend has it that people journeying West in wagon trains
>> has their starter yeast go bad, get sour, but they had no way to fix
>> it. By the time they got to San Francisco, they'd developed a taste
>> for it. People who make sourdough keep a small starter culture from
>> the last batch. To make bread, you add flour, water, sometimes a
>> little salt, let it rise, pinch off a bit for next time, and bake most
>> of it. In many cases, nothing else has been added for well over 100
>> years, tens of thousands of generations.
>>
>> The bacteria outnumber the yeast by numbers cited as between about 20
>> and 100:1.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_sanfranciscensis
>>
>> http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatisthemicrobiologyofsan.html
>>
>> John
>>
>
> It has been known for hundreds of years that the lactobacillus
> acidophilus which sours milk and makes cheese is the only culture
> involved in normal sourdough and is used straight from the source, the
> milk itself. That how a start is made from scratch. Has been so for
> centuries.
Nope. Sourdoughs can be and are traditionally started
by exposing flour and water alone to air, to catch
airborne yeast spores. I've read it in books, and
done it myself.
Regional yeast(s) vary and impart different flavors to
the breads they yield, leading to a certain obsession
about collecting and sampling around for "the best."
http://members.tripod.com/~letsbake/BK110/BK110day9.html
Some places have no local yeast worth mentioning--either
the climate doesn't support enough to start a culture or
it's bad-tasting--while San Francisco is famous for having
a delicious native yeast that's prime:
http://sf0.org/DAX/Wild-Yeast/
The actual culture is a symbiotic(?) mix of bacteria
and yeast; I don't know how the bacilli get in there,
but thank heavens they do.
I'm feasting off a giant 2.5 Kg round I baked yesterday. Yum.
> The sanfranciscensis strain has been feed only flour, water, and a
> pinch of salt for i think over 150 years. Treating it that way makes
> it very sour, adding milk makes it sweeter. Other than that possible
> exception sourdough should not contain any yeast. It would be a
> contaminant normally.
Certain yeasts wreck it; you mustn't expose your starter to
air within a day or so of using commercial yeast, or the
domesticated frankenspores will take over your starter.
But the original starter has yeast, just a different variety.
Sniff it. It smells yeasty for a reason.
But I think we digress...
Cheers,
James Arthur
Posted by John Larkin on July 24, 2008, 2:35 pm wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:00:47 -0700, John Larkin
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:45:58 -0700, John Larkin
>>>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:53:21 -0700, John Larkin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Here, you can buy Mexican cokes, in glass bottles, made with real
>>>>>>sugar. They're pretty good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And sourdough bread is made from flour and water, with maybe a little
>>>>>>salt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>At least the trans-fat hydrogenated soybean oil is going away. That
>>>>>>was really foul.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>John
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>It seems that you have never baked, let alone with sourdough.
>>>>
>>>>How can you conclude that? It's entirely untrue.
>>>>
>>>>I don't bake bread any more. It's a lot of work and mess, and mine
>>>>never tastes as good as the stuff I can buy here. But pies, cobblers,
>>>>custards, bread pudding, brownies, cookies, muffins, cornbread,
>>>>quiche, all still worth the effort.
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>
>>>Some form of leavening is common in most baking. Be it yeast,
>>>sourdough, baking powder, baking soda and vinegar, or other.
>>>The leavening content is critical in most breads, and totally excluded
>>>in a few. See also cakes and cookies.
>>>
>>
>>Sourdough is based on a pH-mediated equilibrium of a yeast and a
>>bacteria. Legend has it that people journeying West in wagon trains
>>has their starter yeast go bad, get sour, but they had no way to fix
>>it. By the time they got to San Francisco, they'd developed a taste
>>for it. People who make sourdough keep a small starter culture from
>>the last batch. To make bread, you add flour, water, sometimes a
>>little salt, let it rise, pinch off a bit for next time, and bake most
>>of it. In many cases, nothing else has been added for well over 100
>>years, tens of thousands of generations.
>>
>>The bacteria outnumber the yeast by numbers cited as between about 20
>>and 100:1.
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_sanfranciscensis
>>
>>http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatisthemicrobiologyofsan.html
>>
>>John
>>
>It has been known for hundreds of years that the lactobacillus
>acidophilus which sours milk and makes cheese is the only culture
>involved in normal sourdough and is used straight from the source, the
>milk itself. That how a start is made from scratch. Has been so for
>centuries.
>The sanfranciscensis strain has been feed only flour, water, and a
>pinch of salt for i think over 150 years. Treating it that way makes
>it very sour, adding milk makes it sweeter. Other than that possible
>exception sourdough should not contain any yeast. It would be a
>contaminant normally.
>
But most of the sourdough here does contain yeast.
John
Posted by JosephKK on July 26, 2008, 10:51 am On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:35:20 -0700, John Larkin
>wrote:
>>On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:00:47 -0700, John Larkin
>>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:45:58 -0700, John Larkin
>>>>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:53:21 -0700, John Larkin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Here, you can buy Mexican cokes, in glass bottles, made with real
>>>>>>>sugar. They're pretty good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And sourdough bread is made from flour and water, with maybe a little
>>>>>>>salt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>At least the trans-fat hydrogenated soybean oil is going away. That
>>>>>>>was really foul.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It seems that you have never baked, let alone with sourdough.
>>>>>
>>>>>How can you conclude that? It's entirely untrue.
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't bake bread any more. It's a lot of work and mess, and mine
>>>>>never tastes as good as the stuff I can buy here. But pies, cobblers,
>>>>>custards, bread pudding, brownies, cookies, muffins, cornbread,
>>>>>quiche, all still worth the effort.
>>>>>
>>>>>John
>>>>
>>>>Some form of leavening is common in most baking. Be it yeast,
>>>>sourdough, baking powder, baking soda and vinegar, or other.
>>>>The leavening content is critical in most breads, and totally excluded
>>>>in a few. See also cakes and cookies.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Sourdough is based on a pH-mediated equilibrium of a yeast and a
>>>bacteria. Legend has it that people journeying West in wagon trains
>>>has their starter yeast go bad, get sour, but they had no way to fix
>>>it. By the time they got to San Francisco, they'd developed a taste
>>>for it. People who make sourdough keep a small starter culture from
>>>the last batch. To make bread, you add flour, water, sometimes a
>>>little salt, let it rise, pinch off a bit for next time, and bake most
>>>of it. In many cases, nothing else has been added for well over 100
>>>years, tens of thousands of generations.
>>>
>>>The bacteria outnumber the yeast by numbers cited as between about 20
>>>and 100:1.
>>>
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_sanfranciscensis
>>>
>>>http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatisthemicrobiologyofsan.html
>>>
>>>John
>>>
>>
>>It has been known for hundreds of years that the lactobacillus
>>acidophilus which sours milk and makes cheese is the only culture
>>involved in normal sourdough and is used straight from the source, the
>>milk itself. That how a start is made from scratch. Has been so for
>>centuries.
>>The sanfranciscensis strain has been feed only flour, water, and a
>>pinch of salt for i think over 150 years. Treating it that way makes
>>it very sour, adding milk makes it sweeter. Other than that possible
>>exception sourdough should not contain any yeast. It would be a
>>contaminant normally.
>>
>But most of the sourdough here does contain yeast.
>John
Yours might . Mine don't. I make starts from unpasturized (read
living) milk / yogurt. You may make your any way you want.
Posted by James Arthur on July 21, 2008, 1:36 pm
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:53:21 -0700, John Larkin
> >wrote:
> >>> ..
> >>>> John Larkin wrote:
> >>>>> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:25:14 GMT, James Arthur
> >>>>>> Yes, but carbohydrates are so much easier to grow, and even easier
> >>>>>> to subsidize. Hence their popularity.
> >>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofuel
> >>>> Sugar cane and its relatives are the ones to beat. Nothing else comes
> >>>> close yet. We can also grow oil rich plants on marginal land. People
> >>>> are playing with Jatropha for this although I don't envy the farmers
> >>>> job.
> >>>>> About a billion people on this planet get insufficient carbohydrates
> >>>>> to meet their body's needs. Burning food in SUVs and airplanes is
> >>>>> grotesque. One bushel of corn, 65 pounds, makes a couple of gallons
> >>>>> of ethanol. So refilling an Escalade could waste a half of a ton of
> >>>>> food.
> >>>> I am in full agreement with you there. It also drives prices of grain
> >>>> up out of reach of the poorest.
> >>>> Only the power of the US corn lobby could ever have got this one off
> >>>> the ground. The end to end energy cost of making alcohol from grain
> >>>> including all inputs is pretty awful. You get only about 10-20%
> >>>> return if you are lucky. Sugar cane is more than 300% ROI and still
> >>>> with scope for improvement.
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Martin Brown
> >>> As a diabetic, the potential for a rise in refined sugar prices and
> >>> a restriction in its availability, is not too alarming. But still
> >>> there is that "Nutrasweet" and some other sugar substitutes have real
> >>> sugar as a feed stock. I guess it could be said that the world, as a
> >>> whole, can get along without it's main sweetener better than a major
> >>> feed stock like corn and soy. The protein that the corn & soy
> >>> eventually provides the world will keep people alive, the sugar?
> >>> Luck;
> >>> Ken
> >>Ugh, and that nasty High Fructose Corn Syrup. The older I get, the fewer
> >>processed foods I eat, not so much because I don't like cereal or so on,
> >>but there is so much HFCS in the vast majority of products now that
> >>they're inedible to me - I don't know how poeple can stomach the stuff.
> >>Even something as simple as a Kaiser roll is now nauseatingly sweet.
> >>I've gotten to where I'm starting to even make my own bread, that's how
> >>disgusting most of the commercial items have gotten. And obesity is
> >>described as being "an epidemic" among even young children. The last
> >>thing we need is ever-more HFCS in everything. And studies indicate that
> >>it is worse than regular sugar, something to do with it being iether
> >>unrecognized ro poorly-recognized by the hormones that signal the brain
> >>we're satiated. Not to mention that the hidden sugar only contributes to
> >>obesity and type-II diabetes. I mean, why the heck does something like
> >>*sausage* "need' to have HFCS added? IMO, it'd be a blessing if that
> >>crap was turned into ethanol, because that'd mean less of it would be
> >>going into food products.
> >>At least, that is my opinionated opinion ;)
> >Here, you can buy Mexican cokes, in glass bottles, made with real
> >sugar. They're pretty good.
> >And sourdough bread is made from flour and water, with maybe a little
> >salt.
[snip]
> It seems that you have never baked, let alone with sourdough.
How so? That's how I've been making my sourdough for the last decade
or so. Love the stuff.
Cheers,
James Arthur
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>>On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:45:58 -0700, John Larkin
>>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:53:21 -0700, John Larkin
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Here, you can buy Mexican cokes, in glass bottles, made with real
>>>>>sugar. They're pretty good.
>>>>>
>>>>>And sourdough bread is made from flour and water, with maybe a little
>>>>>salt.
>>>>>
>>>>>At least the trans-fat hydrogenated soybean oil is going away. That
>>>>>was really foul.
>>>>>
>>>>>John
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It seems that you have never baked, let alone with sourdough.
>>>
>>>How can you conclude that? It's entirely untrue.
>>>
>>>I don't bake bread any more. It's a lot of work and mess, and mine
>>>never tastes as good as the stuff I can buy here. But pies, cobblers,
>>>custards, bread pudding, brownies, cookies, muffins, cornbread,
>>>quiche, all still worth the effort.
>>>
>>>John
>>
>>Some form of leavening is common in most baking. Be it yeast,
>>sourdough, baking powder, baking soda and vinegar, or other.
>>The leavening content is critical in most breads, and totally excluded
>>in a few. See also cakes and cookies.
>>
>Sourdough is based on a pH-mediated equilibrium of a yeast and a
>bacteria. Legend has it that people journeying West in wagon trains
>has their starter yeast go bad, get sour, but they had no way to fix
>it. By the time they got to San Francisco, they'd developed a taste
>for it. People who make sourdough keep a small starter culture from
>the last batch. To make bread, you add flour, water, sometimes a
>little salt, let it rise, pinch off a bit for next time, and bake most
>of it. In many cases, nothing else has been added for well over 100
>years, tens of thousands of generations.
>The bacteria outnumber the yeast by numbers cited as between about 20
>and 100:1.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_sanfranciscensis
>http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatisthemicrobiologyofsan.html
>John