Posted by Curbie on March 9, 2011, 3:07 am
Morris,
>The original goal was to arrive at a commercial product that the
>construction folks could treat like a standard window unit or pre-hung
>door, and that could be installed in a conventional structure to reduce
>heating costs.
This is what I like about the design.
>The installable module approach turned out to be a good idea, and (to
>even my surprise) an exploration of the physics led to a panel capable
>of delivering 100% of the heat for an ordinary, conventional structure.
I'm a little twitchy here, replacing household heating load during
sunlight I can see, I don't see intrinsic heat storage, never less the
return on investment for that alone gives the design merit.
>One of the things I learned was that an active panel _cannot_ outperform
>a sufficiently well-designed passive panel. At first that seems
>counter-intuitive - but it's true, because efficiency doesn't come from
>a fan.
Heat storage is still something that needs to be considered when
compare active and passive systems.
Curbie
Posted by Morris Dovey on March 9, 2011, 4:53 am
On 3/8/11 9:07 PM, Curbie wrote:
>> The installable module approach turned out to be a good idea, and (to
>> even my surprise) an exploration of the physics led to a panel capable
>> of delivering 100% of the heat for an ordinary, conventional structure.
> I'm a little twitchy here, replacing household heating load during
> sunlight I can see, I don't see intrinsic heat storage, never less the
> return on investment for that alone gives the design merit.
I can't fault your twitchiness - the 100% solar heat wasn't even hoped
for when the first two new panels were installed. In fact, I made the
strongest case I could for three panels instead of two - and I was
caught completely by surprise when the two were enough to slightly
overheat the building through that first winter.
To relieve some of that twitchiness, start with the volume of air in the
heated space. Once you know the volume you can approximate its mass, and
from that you can calculate the amount of heat energy in that mass of
air at room temperature. Now calculate the mass of storage media needed
to store that much heat at the same temperature. Knowing that, you can
use the density of the storage medium to calculate the corresponding
storage volume.
Note that that volume of storage is what's needed to raise the
temperature of all the air in the structure to whatever you called room
temperature exactly once - from a /very/ chilly -273.15˚C!
If you DAGS on [alt.solar.thermal]+"Physics help please" you'll see how
I muddled my way (with some expert help) to grasping why things played
so unexpectedly well. Somewhere in the thread you'll find a short
program that I wrote to do the calculation - and I'd guess that you
wouldn't have any difficulty adapting that to a spreadsheet.
>> One of the things I learned was that an active panel _cannot_ outperform
>> a sufficiently well-designed passive panel. At first that seems
>> counter-intuitive - but it's true, because efficiency doesn't come from
>> a fan.
> Heat storage is still something that needs to be considered when
> compare active and passive systems.
Heat storage needs to be considered no matter what - but the thermal
mass required has nothing to do with whether the method of heat
acquisition is active or passive. :)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Posted by sno on March 9, 2011, 3:22 am
On 3/8/2011 4:56 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
> On 3/8/11 3:06 PM, sno wrote:
>> Just wondering how much you calculate would make it worth your time and
>> effort....
>>
>> thank you much....have fun....sno
> At 3%, the idea had a lower approval rating (among folks with an
> interest in solar heating) than George Bush's foreign policy.
> What's to calculate?
Wonder how much homepower mag pays for an article....??
thinking again....<grin>....have fun....sno
--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
>construction folks could treat like a standard window unit or pre-hung
>door, and that could be installed in a conventional structure to reduce
>heating costs.