Posted by John Gilmer on March 10, 2009, 1:16 pm
On Mar 8, 4:48 pm, EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
> > > Reading between the lines I would think pumped storage involves
> > > pumping
> > > water uphill to some type of storage then having it power a turbine
> > > later when the wind is not blowing. If this is correct, probably not
> > > useful for most homes.
> > True but in some pumped storage is a viable option. You need the right
> > location to implement pumped water storage. However when conditions
> > allow its a very low maintenance option that gives free power.
Obviously pumped storage is a solution for on-peak energy demands,
otherwise the major utility firms would not use it.
On the dowside:
Because of initial cost and continuing maintenance considerations, it
it is totally impractical on a small scale.
Heck, "pure" pumped storage is barely practical on the large scale.
On the large scale its a tradeoff between building another coal (or nuke)
plant or being the pumped storage facility. Another power plant can
always make some money but a pumped storage facility depends upon great
differences between the production and purchase prices of "peak" and "base"
power.
At Niagra Falls, "they" have created a BIG "holding pond" which is filled
by the Niagra River during low demand times (essentially late at night).
That pond is "topped off" and filled to above the level of the Niagra River
in the last hour when power is cheap. The pump just raises the water a
relatively few feet. When the power is needed, that some water has the
potential energy of 100s of feet.
If you have a steam with relatively low flow you might create a holding pond
on high ground that's ABOVE the stream. Your wind power would fill that
pond. You would generate electricity on demand from the top of the holding
pond to the lowest point on your property.
Posted by ED on March 10, 2009, 3:09 pm
> On Mar 8, 4:48 pm, EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
> >
> > > > Reading between the lines I would think pumped storage involves
> > > > pumping
> > > > water uphill to some type of storage then having it power a turbine
> > > > later when the wind is not blowing. If this is correct, probably not
> > > > useful for most homes.
> > > True but in some pumped storage is a viable option. You need the right
> > > location to implement pumped water storage. However when conditions
> > > allow its a very low maintenance option that gives free power.
> >
> Obviously pumped storage is a solution for on-peak energy demands,
> otherwise the major utility firms would not use it.
> On the dowside:
> Because of initial cost and continuing maintenance considerations, it
> it is totally impractical on a small scale.
It is VERY LOW MAINTENANCE OPTION!
> Heck, "pure" pumped storage is barely practical on the large scale.
It gives FREE POWER.
Posted by Curly Surmudgeon on March 10, 2009, 5:09 pm
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:16:01 -0400, John Gilmer wrote:
> On Mar 8, 4:48 pm, EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
>>
>> > > Reading between the lines I would think pumped storage involves
>> > > pumping
>> > > water uphill to some type of storage then having it power a turbine
>> > > later when the wind is not blowing. If this is correct, probably
>> > > not useful for most homes.
>> > True but in some pumped storage is a viable option. You need the
>> > right location to implement pumped water storage. However when
>> > conditions allow its a very low maintenance option that gives free
>> > power.
>>
>>
>
> Obviously pumped storage is a solution for on-peak energy demands,
> otherwise the major utility firms would not use it.
>
> On the dowside:
>
> Because of initial cost and continuing maintenance considerations, it it
> is totally impractical on a small scale.
>
> Heck, "pure" pumped storage is barely practical on the large scale.
>
> On the large scale its a tradeoff between building another coal (or
> nuke) plant or being the pumped storage facility. Another power plant
> can always make some money but a pumped storage facility depends upon
> great differences between the production and purchase prices of "peak"
> and "base" power.
Differentiate between commercial and survival installations. When off
grid it is quite reasonable to harvest free energy, even at great
inefficiency, for storage.
> At Niagra Falls, "they" have created a BIG "holding pond" which is
> filled by the Niagra River during low demand times (essentially late at
> night). That pond is "topped off" and filled to above the level of the
> Niagra River in the last hour when power is cheap. The pump just
> raises the water a relatively few feet. When the power is needed, that
> some water has the potential energy of 100s of feet.
>
> If you have a steam with relatively low flow you might create a holding
> pond on high ground that's ABOVE the stream. Your wind power would
> fill that pond. You would generate electricity on demand from the top
> of the holding pond to the lowest point on your property.
Precisely. For those of us with sufficient acreage, elevation and wind
that is a very attractive option.
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$8,800,000,000,000.00, Angry Yet?
Arrest Bush
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Winston_Smith on March 10, 2009, 10:27 pm
>Differentiate between commercial and survival installations. When off
>grid it is quite reasonable to harvest free energy, even at great
>inefficiency, for storage.
Indeed, I suggest the emphasis this thread is putting on efficiency is
misplaced. In a commercial application, it's all important. For a
small off-grid application, it is not. Don suggested something like
50% efficiency for a stock automotive alternator. AZ_Nomad correctly
pointed out we are dealing with a power level around 1 kW.
So if we waste another 1 kW of the energy available, it's a trivial
part or what's mechanically available from even a minor water way.
Accepting that loss gives one 24 kWh per day which is quite adequate
for normal household uses - excluding gross heating tasks. It is the
difference between having normal electric power available vs rubbing
two boy scouts together to run your computer.
>> At Niagra Falls, "they" have created a BIG "holding pond" which is
>> filled by the Niagra River during low demand times (essentially late at
>> night). That pond is "topped off" and filled to above the level of the
>> Niagra River in the last hour when power is cheap. The pump just
>> raises the water a relatively few feet. When the power is needed, that
>> some water has the potential energy of 100s of feet.
I toured the Conowingo Dam outside Philadelphia in the early 60s.
They were using excess power from the grid at night to pump water up
above the dam and then released that during the day to supply peak
loads.
>> If you have a steam with relatively low flow you might create a holding
>> pond on high ground that's ABOVE the stream. Your wind power would
>> fill that pond. You would generate electricity on demand from the top
>> of the holding pond to the lowest point on your property.
>Precisely. For those of us with sufficient acreage, elevation and wind
>that is a very attractive option.
Posted by Curly Surmudgeon on March 11, 2009, 1:38 am
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 19:27:47 -0700, Winston_Smith wrote:
>
>>Differentiate between commercial and survival installations. When off
>>grid it is quite reasonable to harvest free energy, even at great
>>inefficiency, for storage.
>
> Indeed, I suggest the emphasis this thread is putting on efficiency is
> misplaced. In a commercial application, it's all important. For a
> small off-grid application, it is not. Don suggested something like 50%
> efficiency for a stock automotive alternator. AZ_Nomad correctly
> pointed out we are dealing with a power level around 1 kW.
That's why it is "free." Wind power is free no matter what the
efficiency. Yes, you can improve efficiency and get more but for small
installations it's a lot cheaper to use cheap parts and let the
generation efficiency fall where it may so you can concentrate on
optimizing useage to conserve on battery life.
> So if we waste another 1 kW of the energy available, it's a trivial part
> or what's mechanically available from even a minor water way.
>
> Accepting that loss gives one 24 kWh per day which is quite adequate for
> normal household uses - excluding gross heating tasks. It is the
> difference between having normal electric power available vs rubbing two
> boy scouts together to run your computer.
And with a bit of simple selection and machining you can increase
alternator efficiency to the 75-80% range.
>>> At Niagra Falls, "they" have created a BIG "holding pond" which is
>>> filled by the Niagra River during low demand times (essentially late
>>> at night). That pond is "topped off" and filled to above the level of
>>> the Niagra River in the last hour when power is cheap. The pump
>>> just raises the water a relatively few feet. When the power is
>>> needed, that some water has the potential energy of 100s of feet.
>
> I toured the Conowingo Dam outside Philadelphia in the early 60s. They
> were using excess power from the grid at night to pump water up above
> the dam and then released that during the day to supply peak loads.
>
>>> If you have a steam with relatively low flow you might create a
>>> holding pond on high ground that's ABOVE the stream. Your wind power
>>> would fill that pond. You would generate electricity on demand from
>>> the top of the holding pond to the lowest point on your property.
>>
>>Precisely. For those of us with sufficient acreage, elevation and wind
>>that is a very attractive option.
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$8,800,000,000,000.00, Angry Yet?
Arrest Bush
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > pumping
> > > water uphill to some type of storage then having it power a turbine
> > > later when the wind is not blowing. If this is correct, probably not
> > > useful for most homes.
> > True but in some pumped storage is a viable option. You need the right
> > location to implement pumped water storage. However when conditions
> > allow its a very low maintenance option that gives free power.