Posted by Nog on May 18, 2005, 6:16 pm
> You're arguing with the technically ignorant..
> I've agree with you and have been asking that very same questions that I
> have for some time know.
> The media inspired mass assumption is that hydrogen fuel will be the
> energy
> savior we have all been looking for; because (they say) that you can
> simply
> split water in to hydrogen/oxygen and that the only combustion by-product
> is
> water again.
> Hydrogen is fairly simple to manufacture, but the input of energy required
> far exceeds the return you would get. Mainly due to the mechanical and
> thermal energy losses inherent in the present internal combustion engine
> designs. Use of hydrogen fuel-cells to run electric motors has far greater
> efficiencies.
> However, the problem still remains, as you stated, the energy needed for
> the
> hydrogen production has to come from somewhere. It is not just simply
> plugging in your hydrogen generator into the wall socket. (that electrical
> energy has to be generated somehow also)
> This is the same problem with all-electric vehicles. Most people think,
> "great, all I would do is plug it in to recharge, and run around emission
> free, right?
> Wrong... all the electrical energy needed to charge your "clean" electric
> or
> hydrogen powered vehicle is likely coming from a far dirtier, coal or gas
> burning generating station.
Wrong. All electrical power generation can be nuclear powered, the cleanest,
safest and most practical. Not to mention getting off of foreign oil.
An electric car or truck that can get 300 miles on a charge as, li-ion
battery cars
can, is workable for the majority of commuters and travelers.
> Anyone who has been to Laughlin, Nevada can plainly see the effects of an
> electrical generating stations polluting output. The generating station
> fills the river valley with a huge lingering cloud of haze/smog that is
> far
> worse than what current gas burning vehicles output. (Not defending gas
> vehicles either, though) And hydro burning vehicles would produce
> potentially greater amounts of oxides of nitrogen (NOx...can you say acid
> rain) from the abundance of nitrogen in our atmosphere and higher
> combustion
> temperatures of a hydrogen burning engine.
> So until you have a clean SOURCE for all this energy, such as solar, wind,
> or (believe it or not) nuclear, the whole hydrogen/electric vehicle route
> is
> pointless.
> Oh yeah, there are also lots of problems with hydrogen embrittlement with
> any metal components in contact with hydrogen. (your exhaust problem)
New ways to crack water and get the H2 out of it plus the O will come on
line as
demand grows. The thing with burning hydrogen in an internal combustion
engine
is horsepower. You get it all, power and clean emissions. Fuel cells with
the small electrical
output will limit size and power of vehicles.
>> In what sense? It's surely more refined at present then was gasoline
>> when use of gasoline for fuel was started.
>>
>> >The econonics is just not there for that fuel....
>> Perhaps. Factor in the indirect costs of petroleum fuels such as
>> environmental impacts, and hydrogen starts looking pretty economical.
>>
>> >The politics is there for that fuel...but the politicians plugging
> hydrogen
>> >have no grasp of
>> >sceince or economics.
>> Do you?
>> ////////////////
>> I do not say that HYDROGEN IS CRAP USED IN A CORRECTLY DESIGNED ENGINE
>> the
>> POLLUTION level it is very good but only if the Hydrogen can be produced
>> economically and in a pollution free way.
>> This would be the case if hydrogen were a product of a wind farm or solar
>> cells.
>> As I see it unless the local city authorities start taking control it
> will
>> never work out, it must be driven by policy, like all buses and Taxi's
>> working within city limits must be driven by a green power, like road
> loops,
>> charging points at parking bays, i/e Electric [ battery or hydrogen , Fly
>> wheels []
>> City cars hired for the day powered by one of the above, obviously this
>> would only work out in large cities, but then this is where they are need
>> most.
>> As a footnote, we would never run out of fuel on this planet we will run
> out
>> of planet.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Posted by Bob Eldred on May 18, 2005, 8:39 pm
> Wrong. All electrical power generation can be nuclear powered, the
cleanest,
> safest and most practical. Not to mention getting off of foreign oil.
> An electric car or truck that can get 300 miles on a charge as, li-ion
> battery cars
> can, is workable for the majority of commuters and travelers.
>>
> New ways to crack water and get the H2 out of it plus the O will come on
> line as
> demand grows. The thing with burning hydrogen in an internal combustion
> engine
> is horsepower. You get it all, power and clean emissions. Fuel cells with
> the small electrical
> output will limit size and power of vehicles.
"All electrical power generation can be nuclear powered,"... You think so,
huh? Don't expect any great upsurge in nuclear power. Waste disposal,
licensing issues, political opposition and risky financing will keep nuclear
power off of the table for years to come, maybe forever. Secondly, even if
nuclear power or any other new source like wind, solar, tides, etc. become
prevelent, they will displace fossil electricity, but the energy will be
sold as electricity so battery vehicles may have a future.
Nobody in his right mind would make hydrogen, or any other fuel out of
valuable electricity. It's a matter of simple economics. Electricity is more
valuable than fuel and will always be so. If you have electricity, you will
sell electricity, you'll never make a less valuable commodity out of it. As
Lancaster would say, " it's like turning dollars into pesos."
What new ways are there to crack water? You still need the energy input one
way or another. Even if you did get hydrogen economically and that is a big
if, how are you going to transport it. What kind of tanks do you propose in
this ICE car? Unfortunately hydrogen is very poor at storing energy. It has
a very low of energy content per volume and requires expensive, dangerous,
heavy tankage to transport. All of this will result in poor range and high
prices which will never be accepted. Hydrogen is a scam. If you want to bet
on something, bet on bio-diesel, not hydrogen.
Bob
Posted by John P Bengi on May 18, 2005, 10:09 pm
Are the long electrical cords for the shuttles to the space stations in
place yet?
> > Wrong. All electrical power generation can be nuclear powered, the
> cleanest,
> > safest and most practical. Not to mention getting off of foreign oil.
> > An electric car or truck that can get 300 miles on a charge as, li-ion
> > battery cars
> > can, is workable for the majority of commuters and travelers.
> >>
> > New ways to crack water and get the H2 out of it plus the O will come on
> > line as
> > demand grows. The thing with burning hydrogen in an internal combustion
> > engine
> > is horsepower. You get it all, power and clean emissions. Fuel cells
with
> > the small electrical
> > output will limit size and power of vehicles.
> "All electrical power generation can be nuclear powered,"... You think so,
> huh? Don't expect any great upsurge in nuclear power. Waste disposal,
> licensing issues, political opposition and risky financing will keep
nuclear
> power off of the table for years to come, maybe forever. Secondly, even
if
> nuclear power or any other new source like wind, solar, tides, etc. become
> prevelent, they will displace fossil electricity, but the energy will be
> sold as electricity so battery vehicles may have a future.
> Nobody in his right mind would make hydrogen, or any other fuel out of
> valuable electricity. It's a matter of simple economics. Electricity is
more
> valuable than fuel and will always be so. If you have electricity, you
will
> sell electricity, you'll never make a less valuable commodity out of it.
As
> Lancaster would say, " it's like turning dollars into pesos."
> What new ways are there to crack water? You still need the energy input
one
> way or another. Even if you did get hydrogen economically and that is a
big
> if, how are you going to transport it. What kind of tanks do you propose
in
> this ICE car? Unfortunately hydrogen is very poor at storing energy. It
has
> a very low of energy content per volume and requires expensive, dangerous,
> heavy tankage to transport. All of this will result in poor range and high
> prices which will never be accepted. Hydrogen is a scam. If you want to
bet
> on something, bet on bio-diesel, not hydrogen.
> Bob
Posted by Bill Bradley on May 18, 2005, 11:19 pm
John P Bengi wrote:
> Are the long electrical cords for the shuttles to the space stations in
> place yet?
Specific Impulse is not usually an important factor in wheeled vehicles.
Bill
Posted by Nog on May 20, 2005, 7:43 am
>> Wrong. All electrical power generation can be nuclear powered, the
> cleanest,
>> safest and most practical. Not to mention getting off of foreign oil.
>> An electric car or truck that can get 300 miles on a charge as, li-ion
>> battery cars
>> can, is workable for the majority of commuters and travelers.
>>>
>> New ways to crack water and get the H2 out of it plus the O will come on
>> line as
>> demand grows. The thing with burning hydrogen in an internal combustion
>> engine
>> is horsepower. You get it all, power and clean emissions. Fuel cells with
>> the small electrical
>> output will limit size and power of vehicles.
> "All electrical power generation can be nuclear powered,"... You think so,
> huh? Don't expect any great upsurge in nuclear power. Waste disposal,
> licensing issues, political opposition and risky financing will keep
> nuclear
> power off of the table for years to come, maybe forever. Secondly, even
> if
> nuclear power or any other new source like wind, solar, tides, etc. become
> prevelent, they will displace fossil electricity, but the energy will be
> sold as electricity so battery vehicles may have a future.
> Nobody in his right mind would make hydrogen, or any other fuel out of
> valuable electricity. It's a matter of simple economics. Electricity is
> more
> valuable than fuel and will always be so. If you have electricity, you
> will
> sell electricity, you'll never make a less valuable commodity out of it.
> As
> Lancaster would say, " it's like turning dollars into pesos."
> What new ways are there to crack water? You still need the energy input
> one
> way or another. Even if you did get hydrogen economically and that is a
> big
> if, how are you going to transport it. What kind of tanks do you propose
> in
> this ICE car? Unfortunately hydrogen is very poor at storing energy. It
> has
> a very low of energy content per volume and requires expensive, dangerous,
> heavy tankage to transport. All of this will result in poor range and high
> prices which will never be accepted. Hydrogen is a scam. If you want to
> bet
> on something, bet on bio-diesel, not hydrogen.
> Bob
Negative, negative, negative! You people are against everything! We move on
inspite of you.
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> I've agree with you and have been asking that very same questions that I
> have for some time know.
> The media inspired mass assumption is that hydrogen fuel will be the
> energy
> savior we have all been looking for; because (they say) that you can
> simply
> split water in to hydrogen/oxygen and that the only combustion by-product
> is
> water again.
> Hydrogen is fairly simple to manufacture, but the input of energy required
> far exceeds the return you would get. Mainly due to the mechanical and
> thermal energy losses inherent in the present internal combustion engine
> designs. Use of hydrogen fuel-cells to run electric motors has far greater
> efficiencies.
> However, the problem still remains, as you stated, the energy needed for
> the
> hydrogen production has to come from somewhere. It is not just simply
> plugging in your hydrogen generator into the wall socket. (that electrical
> energy has to be generated somehow also)
> This is the same problem with all-electric vehicles. Most people think,
> "great, all I would do is plug it in to recharge, and run around emission
> free, right?
> Wrong... all the electrical energy needed to charge your "clean" electric
> or
> hydrogen powered vehicle is likely coming from a far dirtier, coal or gas
> burning generating station.