Posted by Jim on August 20, 2007, 10:44 pm
>I paid $12. for one new. I will now sell mine for $6. It is new in the box.
>Maybe $6. is too much.
No, it's not. Pay me the $6 and I'll take it.....
> Ray
>>>I am familiar with a device called a green box. That works on motors
>>>only.
>>>The original design was done by Frank Nola ( Nasa, Huntsville Ala ) The
>>>box
>>>uses a triac or two scr's in anti parallel and a sensing resistor. When
>>>first turned on the triac is fully turned on. As time goes by the triac
>>>is
>>>phased back until a predetermined slip frequency is detected or power
>>>factor. This phase angle is held constant thus reducing the power used by
>>>the motor.
>>
>> These had extensive writeups in the popular scientific press, such
>> as Popular Science, back in the late 1970s when NASA came out
>> with this.
>>
>> From my recollection Nola gritted his teeth a bit after he
>> used the label "power factor controller" since his device
>> worked somehwat differently.
>>
>> This was going to Save The World For Democracy, and
>> reduce lots and lots of energy waste. It was used by
>> Exxon with a straight face when they wanted (and succeeded)
>> in buying up Federal Pacific Electric claiming they could
>> use their joint expertise in retrofitting all the electrical
>> motors in the US and save us all.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> _____________________________________________________
>> Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
>> dannyb@panix.com
>> [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
>
Posted by Ray King on August 21, 2007, 11:17 am
Sounds like a deal. Ill try to find several more and hope Ill make a profitt
on the higher volume.
Ray
>>I paid $12. for one new. I will now sell mine for $6. It is new in the
>>box. Maybe $6. is too much.
> No, it's not. Pay me the $6 and I'll take it.....
>>
>> Ray
>>
>>
>>
>>>>I am familiar with a device called a green box. That works on motors
>>>>only.
>>>>The original design was done by Frank Nola ( Nasa, Huntsville Ala ) The
>>>>box
>>>>uses a triac or two scr's in anti parallel and a sensing resistor. When
>>>>first turned on the triac is fully turned on. As time goes by the triac
>>>>is
>>>>phased back until a predetermined slip frequency is detected or power
>>>>factor. This phase angle is held constant thus reducing the power used
>>>>by
>>>>the motor.
>>>
>>> These had extensive writeups in the popular scientific press, such
>>> as Popular Science, back in the late 1970s when NASA came out
>>> with this.
>>>
>>> From my recollection Nola gritted his teeth a bit after he
>>> used the label "power factor controller" since his device
>>> worked somehwat differently.
>>>
>>> This was going to Save The World For Democracy, and
>>> reduce lots and lots of energy waste. It was used by
>>> Exxon with a straight face when they wanted (and succeeded)
>>> in buying up Federal Pacific Electric claiming they could
>>> use their joint expertise in retrofitting all the electrical
>>> motors in the US and save us all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> _____________________________________________________
>>> Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
>>> dannyb@panix.com
>>> [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
>>
>>
>
Posted by Jim on August 20, 2007, 10:42 pm
John,
Would you please give us a bit of explanation of what PF is? I see it on
my KillAWatt, but am unable to figger the critter out.
TIA,
Jim
>I ran one of those things through my lab a few years ago and wrote a long
>review,
> posted I think, to sci.energy. I tested it on my lab refrigerator.
> Ultimate result:
> Blown compressor and blown green thing.
> I actually bought a second unit to make sure the first wasn't a fluke.
> Not wanting
> to put another refrigerator at risk, it got connected to a split-phase,
> capacitor run
> motor driving a water brake. The green thing did the same thing to this
> motor that
> it did to the refrigerator motor - caused it to run very hot. I ended the
> test
> before the second motor could be smoked.
> This thing operates on a mostly false premise - that most appliance motors
> are
> underloaded. That might have been the case at some time in the past but
> it sure
> hasn't been the case for refrigerator compressors in the last 20 years or
> so.
> A prime indication of the amount of load on the motor is the power factor.
> It goes
> up with load and approaches 1 at full load. Most every refrigerator that
> I've ever
> tested exhibited a PF in the 0.90's. Not much room for improvement there.
> If one wants to achieve a PF near 1.0 for whatever reason then he can
> simply add
> suitable capacitance across the motor terminals. This is both cheaper and
> more
> reliable than the electronic gadget. It'll take years to recover the cost
> of even a
> $10 capacitor, though, so why bother?
> John
> wrote:
>>Howard,
>>
>>I am familiar with a device called a green box. That works on motors only.
>>The original design was done by Frank Nola ( Nasa, Huntsville Ala ) The
>>box
>>uses a triac or two scr's in anti parallel and a sensing resistor. When
>>first turned on the triac is fully turned on. As time goes by the triac is
>>phased back until a predetermined slip frequency is detected or power
>>factor. This phase angle is held constant thus reducing the power used by
>>the motor. An improved unit is possible using IGBT's and a filter that
>>does
>>not cause as much of a lagging power factor as a triac produces. The
>>filter
>>allows the phase angle control to be on the leading edge of the sine wave
>>rather than the trailing edge. The higher the slip frequency the more
>>resistive the load looks to the input ac and the improved power factor
>>results. The down side is the higher the slip the higher the heat in to
>>the
>>motor. A much improved version would be a rectified pfc ac input sine wave
>>synthesized to the motor but costly. So from a cost stand point the green
>>box is not bad.
>>
>>Ray
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> First of all the incoming power is a 120 V RMS (Root Mean Square) sine
>>> wave. The peak -peak value is of course much higher. AC Power is Voltage
>>> times current times power factor. Where power factor varies if the load
>>> is
>>> capacitive or inductive, but never greater then 1.
>>>
>>> There are only two possible ways this device can work. The first is to
>>> influence the electromagnetic field of the meter. Which if you cann plug
>>> it into any outlet can not be so. The second is to modify the power
>>> factor. It would take a pretty big box to do this as most houses are
>>> inductive (motors, lights) loads.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Howard Epstein
>>>
>>> Trygve Lillefosse wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> This may not be the most correct group. But seems like there are
>>>> people here that can answer my question.
>>>>
>>>> I have seen a unit that is supposed to save money on electricity by
>>>> stabilizing the current and smooth out the sinus(?) curves or
>>>> something like that
>>>>
>>>> It is supposed to work by just plugging it into any outlet in your
>>>> house.
>>>>
>>>> Is this a bogus product?
>>>>
>>>> Here is the text form the webshop:
>>>> -snip-
>>>> You can read the user's guide from the photo gallery on the left,
>>>> which explains how this unit works. Note that the following
>>>> information is provided by the manufacturer.
>>>> . - Saves 20% to 30% of electrical consumption
>>>> - Stabilize the supply voltage
>>>> - Reduce electrical overheating and enhances lifespan of appliances
>>>> - Easy to use, maintenance free
>>>> - Earth friendly
>>>> . Rated voltage input: 90V-250V
>>>> Rated frequency: 50HZ-60HZ
>>>> Load capacity: 15000W -snip-
>>>>
>>
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted!
>
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>Maybe $6. is too much.