Posted by gomango on April 3, 2008, 12:42 pm
On Mar 21, 4:20 pm, "Daniel Who Wants to Know"
> > Very nice Ulysses. Im going to get some pictures posted of the
> > project as I go. Im going to need to figure out the windings on this
> > smaller PMA. Where and how did the information that sunk in come
> > from? To me it looks like a bunch of coils, and a mess of wires. I
> > need to identify with star and delta as if I were a 4 year old at this
> > point.
> > Here's some scary stuff you can look at:
> >http://oljeep.com/gw/alt/Alternator_Theory.html (maybe too much info here)
> >http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3_phase_basics.htm (shows Delta and Wye
> > diagrams)
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator (this one has more links at the
> > bottom and links to definitions within the text)
> > It IS a bunch of wires and coils. Figuring out which wire goes with which
> > coil is not difficult. Above I think I said "every fourth coil" but it's
> > only the fourth when you start. I should have said "every third coil."
> > The outback system caught my eye a couple years ago. Currently Im
> > using a trace charge controller and Xantrax inverter to power
> > everything. Im not totally sure what MPPT technology does for a
> > controller, but Ive read a bit about it. The trace does not employ
> > it currently.
> > I'll let you know when I figure out how it's supposed to work. Basically,
> > from my understanding, the MPPT looks at the voltage and amperage
> > available
> > and comes up with the best combination of the two (for battery charging)
> > and
> > locks it in thus giving you the most watts available and still making the
> > voltage high enough for Absorb and Equalization charging.
> > I think the OutBack inverters and the system in general is great. I think
> > their built-in battery chargers need a lot of work. Trace/Xantrex seems
> > to
> > have a very good reputation except when it comes to customer service. If
> > I'm not mistaken you can parallel the outputs of the inverter and a
> > generator to give you more output. OutBack uses an automatic transfer
> > switch so when you connect a generator it switches off the inverter
> > output.
> > I do not like this feature.
> > Meanwhile, we are beginning to see more worn-out Honda Inverter Generators
> > and folks like us figuring out uses for them. I'll bet Honda is thrilled
> > that nobody seems to be actually repairing them and using them as
> > intended--they will sell more generators this way. I wonder if they are
> > watching us now.....
> > I should mention that with my 4" pulley the original 10mm screws held just
> > fine but once I attached a 6" pulley they kept coming loose. I retapped
> > the
> > 10mm threads 1/4" 24 tpi and inserted carriage bolts from the inside of
> > the
> > rotor (carriage bolts are pretty flat and won't hit anything while
> > turning).
> > I used lock washers AND lock nuts and glue on the nuts and I'm going to
> > drill holes in the bolts and add cotter pins because I sure as hell don't
> > want those bolts coming loose and destroying my coils.
> I don't own any generator let alone a Honda inverter model but I can tell
> you that there will be either 3 or 4 wires coming out that used to go to the
> inverter unit. If there are 4 and 1 of them is attached to 3 strands of
> magnet wire while the other 3 are attached to only 1 strand then it is
> star/wye wound. If there are 3 wires and each only has 1 strand attached to
> it there will be a star point somewhere in the windings where the other 3
> ends are attached to each other. If there are only 3 wires coming out and
> each is attached to 2 strands of the magnet wire it is delta.
> Note that each winding may be made up of more than 1 strand in parallel so
> you might find for example a star point with 6, 9, 12, etc strands joined
> while the wires are each attached to 1/3rd of that number which would be 2,
> 3, or 4 each respectively.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
ok, when looking at the coils and going clockwise.... coils 1,2,3 are
single post on one end, and wired in series as follows.
1+4+7+10+13+16, 2+5+8+11+14+17, 3+6+9+12+15+18. The final coils
16,17,18 leg out as a common post. This would indicate Y as far as I
can tell. Im not to sure on the phase or how to tell. Im still
reading up on it when I get some time.
Posted by Eeyore on March 19, 2008, 1:00 pm
gomango wrote:
> I have this master plan, and I would like a bit of advice from you
> all. I have a creek about 300 yards from the house, and in the winter
> the water level is pretty good. I was trying to figure out a way to
> pipe hydro power (for charging) up to the house without running copper
> lines to attempt to save a few $$.
Well ... HYDRO power requires a head of water.
Are you planning a waterwheel ?
Why are you talking about using a compressor ? Drive a generator directly
from the water wheel. Using compressed air to transmit power is VERY
inefficient.
Graham
Posted by gomango on March 19, 2008, 3:11 pm
wrote:
> gomango wrote:
> > I have this master plan, and I would like a bit of advice from you
> > all. I have a creek about 300 yards from the house, and in the winter
> > the water level is pretty good. I was trying to figure out a way to
> > pipe hydro power (for charging) up to the house without running copper
> > lines to attempt to save a few $$.
> Well ... HYDRO power requires a head of water.
> Are you planning a waterwheel ?
> Why are you talking about using a compressor ? Drive a generator directly
> from the water wheel. Using compressed air to transmit power is VERY
> inefficient.
> Graham
Well Graham,
Thats why I posted in here before I undertook the project. To get a
feel for the general direction. Air seemed like a good idea at first,
but is looking quite grim now. I am beyond that now, and looking into
another option. I didnt realize that it would be that inefficient.
Posted by Eeyore on March 19, 2008, 3:55 pm
gomango wrote:
> wrote:
> > gomango wrote:
> > > I have this master plan, and I would like a bit of advice from you
> > > all. I have a creek about 300 yards from the house, and in the winter
> > > the water level is pretty good. I was trying to figure out a way to
> > > pipe hydro power (for charging) up to the house without running copper
> > > lines to attempt to save a few $$.
> >
> > Well ... HYDRO power requires a head of water.
> >
> > Are you planning a waterwheel ?
> >
> > Why are you talking about using a compressor ? Drive a generator directly
> > from the water wheel. Using compressed air to transmit power is VERY
> > inefficient.
> >
> > Graham
> Well Graham,
> Thats why I posted in here before I undertook the project. To get a
> feel for the general direction. Air seemed like a good idea at first,
> but is looking quite grim now. I am beyond that now, and looking into
> another option. I didnt realize that it would be that inefficient.
Understood. Good luck with it.
Just my own observation. Most ordinary cable is good for 250V or so as opposed
to the 12 or 24V ? of your batteries.
If you have an AC generator, it's very easy to step the voltage up for
efficient transmission of the power from the waterwheel to power shed. 10 times
the voltage = 1/10 the current = 1/100 th the power loss for a given cable
gauge.
Even with DC it's very much worthwhile using a simple inverter type solution to
do the same.
Graham
Posted by You on March 19, 2008, 4:08 pm
> Just my own observation. Most ordinary cable is good for 250V or so as opposed
> to the 12 or 24V ? of your batteries.
I don't know where you live but here in the USA, just about ANY
Electrical Utility Wire that is UL Rated, will have a 600V
Insulation Rating......
XML site map
> > project as I go. Im going to need to figure out the windings on this
> > smaller PMA. Where and how did the information that sunk in come
> > from? To me it looks like a bunch of coils, and a mess of wires. I
> > need to identify with star and delta as if I were a 4 year old at this
> > point.
> > Here's some scary stuff you can look at:
> >http://oljeep.com/gw/alt/Alternator_Theory.html (maybe too much info here)
> >http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3_phase_basics.htm (shows Delta and Wye
> > diagrams)
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator (this one has more links at the
> > bottom and links to definitions within the text)
> > It IS a bunch of wires and coils. Figuring out which wire goes with which
> > coil is not difficult. Above I think I said "every fourth coil" but it's
> > only the fourth when you start. I should have said "every third coil."
> > The outback system caught my eye a couple years ago. Currently Im
> > using a trace charge controller and Xantrax inverter to power
> > everything. Im not totally sure what MPPT technology does for a
> > controller, but Ive read a bit about it. The trace does not employ
> > it currently.
> > I'll let you know when I figure out how it's supposed to work. Basically,
> > from my understanding, the MPPT looks at the voltage and amperage
> > available
> > and comes up with the best combination of the two (for battery charging)
> > and
> > locks it in thus giving you the most watts available and still making the
> > voltage high enough for Absorb and Equalization charging.
> > I think the OutBack inverters and the system in general is great. I think
> > their built-in battery chargers need a lot of work. Trace/Xantrex seems
> > to
> > have a very good reputation except when it comes to customer service. If
> > I'm not mistaken you can parallel the outputs of the inverter and a
> > generator to give you more output. OutBack uses an automatic transfer
> > switch so when you connect a generator it switches off the inverter
> > output.
> > I do not like this feature.
> > Meanwhile, we are beginning to see more worn-out Honda Inverter Generators
> > and folks like us figuring out uses for them. I'll bet Honda is thrilled
> > that nobody seems to be actually repairing them and using them as
> > intended--they will sell more generators this way. I wonder if they are
> > watching us now.....
> > I should mention that with my 4" pulley the original 10mm screws held just
> > fine but once I attached a 6" pulley they kept coming loose. I retapped
> > the
> > 10mm threads 1/4" 24 tpi and inserted carriage bolts from the inside of
> > the
> > rotor (carriage bolts are pretty flat and won't hit anything while
> > turning).
> > I used lock washers AND lock nuts and glue on the nuts and I'm going to
> > drill holes in the bolts and add cotter pins because I sure as hell don't
> > want those bolts coming loose and destroying my coils.
> I don't own any generator let alone a Honda inverter model but I can tell
> you that there will be either 3 or 4 wires coming out that used to go to the
> inverter unit. If there are 4 and 1 of them is attached to 3 strands of
> magnet wire while the other 3 are attached to only 1 strand then it is
> star/wye wound. If there are 3 wires and each only has 1 strand attached to
> it there will be a star point somewhere in the windings where the other 3
> ends are attached to each other. If there are only 3 wires coming out and
> each is attached to 2 strands of the magnet wire it is delta.
> Note that each winding may be made up of more than 1 strand in parallel so
> you might find for example a star point with 6, 9, 12, etc strands joined
> while the wires are each attached to 1/3rd of that number which would be 2,
> 3, or 4 each respectively.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -