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The first 2,000 kwh - Page 11

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Posted by Falcon on July 20, 2011, 2:03 pm

 On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:40:21 +0200, Tom P wrote ...

I don't know where you got your figures from, but in the UK the situation
is different.

1) "...the difference between the average household tariff and the grid
feed-in tariff is around 5 cents".

I'd like to see a reference for that. In the UK, the fee-in tariff is "up
to 41.3p/kWh, depending on the type and size of the system used to generate
renewable energy", plus "an additional 3p/kWh when you export any surplus
back to the grid".

The UK market is awash with different tariffs, but average price consumers
pay for electricity is around 13p/kWh. This is expected to rise to around
15-16p/kWh (20% or so) in the next few months as wholesale prices feed into
the retail market.

In the UK the difference between the price paid to someone like you with PV
panels and the average household tariff is, therefore, around 28p/kWh (31-
32 Euro-cents/kWh.

2) "The feed-in tariff is declining every year..."

I'd like to see a reference for that. In the UK, the feed-in tariffs are
are index-linked to RPI and guaranteed for 20 years, except solar systems
which qualify for 25 years. According to the Government, that should earn a
return up to 8% p.a. I know of no other form of investment that virtually
guarantees a return of around 8% p.a. for 25 years.

I understand that the government is now reviewing the subsidy for larger PV
installations (i.e. >50 kW plus) because of the cost of supporting them.
I'm not surprised.

3) "the claim that a 10% rise in electricity prices is the result of grid
feed-in subsidy is unjustified".

I agree, that was a simplistic and misleading estimate.

Ofgem estimates that environmental costs (which include the Energy
Efficiency Commitment (EEC), Community Energy Savings Programme (CESP),
Carbon Emissions Reduction Target (CERT), and Renewables Obligation
Certificates (ROCs)) currently adds around 8% to average domestic fuel
bills. I expect that percentage will rise, but of course that depends on
what happens to gas, coal and other fuel prices.

Feed-in tariffs are not specifically mentioned in the report; they form
part of the overall cost of environmental obligations.


Feed-In Tariffs

Fuel Prices
http://xrl.us/bk2k9r  (Link to www.confusedaboutenergy.co.uk)

Environmental costs
Ofgem: Electricity and Gas Supply Market Report, June 2011
http://xrl.us/bk2k55  (Link to www.ofgem.gov.uk)

fide, sed cui vide. (L)

Posted by Tom P on July 20, 2011, 4:38 pm
On 07/20/2011 04:03 PM, Falcon wrote:

That is a spectacular difference. Here the tariff has gone down from 33c
to 28c since 1st Jan. Household rates for power are around 22-24 cents
depending on the contract. There are also cheaper deals for flat rates
and upfront contracts.

Posted by Falcon on July 20, 2011, 11:31 pm
 On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 18:38:53 +0200, Tom P wrote ...


Tom, could you clarify the figures you quoted earlier, please? I think I've
misunderstood something along the line.

I thought you said that 2,000 kWh had been delivered by your panels in the
first six months of operation (which is pretty good) and that your
supplier, RWE, had just transferred 526 to your bank account, I assume as
a result of sales of surplus energy to the grid.

At an average feed-in price of 30 cents per kWh that suggests you sold ~
1,750 kWh of the 2,000 kWh generated to the grid, leaving just 250 kWh
consumed by yourself. Only 41 kWh of your PV-supplied power per month is
used to power your home? That can't be right, surely? I thought only your
surplus energy should be sold to the grid? I get through an average of 40-
50 kWh per WEEK and my consumption is well below the UK national average.

Is your personal electricity consumption figure really that low? or have I
done the sums wrong?

And I'm really not sure how a difference of ~5 cents between the price you
get and the price you pay for grid-supplies can result in a good return on
an 11,000 investment.

Have I misunderstood something?


fide, sed cui vide. (L)

Posted by Tom P on July 21, 2011, 9:16 am
 On 07/21/2011 01:31 AM, Falcon wrote:

In a word - yes. Everything.


House wiring --<--<--Meter 1 -<--x--connection point--<--- grid
PV installation -->--Meter 2-->-/

There are two completely separate meters, one for domestic consumption,
one for the grid feed-in.
The grid feed-in feeds 100% of the power generated into the grid via its
own meter. The 2,000 kwh is what the PV installation has fed into the
grid as measured by the meter. This has absolutely nothing to do with
the domestic consumption. None of the power generated by the PV
installation is used privately.

In fact, our domestic power supplier is not even the same company as the
grid utility. We have a contract for power with a local city. The city
has a contract with the grid utility that lets them provide me with
power. Quite likely the grid utility has a contract to sell power from
my PV installation somewhere else.

As far as the payments are concerned, the agreement is that the grid
utility company pays a monthly installment calculated on the basis of
the projected power generation. At the end of the year the meter is read
and the balance settled. The actual yearly figure will then be used as a
basis for the monthly installment for the following year.  This is
exactly the same as the procedure used for monthly installment payments
for power consumption, just the other way round.

That means that the 526 payment is less than the power is worth that
has actually gone into the grid. The balance will be settled at the end
of the year.

  I hope that this clarifies things.

Posted by Giga2 on July 21, 2011, 9:53 am

That surprises me. I suppose it is financially better for you (get 5c more
per kwh) but surely it would be more efficient for you to use as much of the
generated power directly. Surely the meter could still be in the line and
calculations could happen in exactly the same way (I think this is the way
it works here in UK)?

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