Posted by Peter Franks on April 10, 2011, 6:04 pm
On 4/9/2011 11:32 PM, Giga2 <Giga2 wrote:
>>>> Are you good for $0K?
>>>
>>> I just want to see the bill.
>>
>> There is no bill to see. Are you going to buy me a PV system for the
>> "general good"?
> Of course not.
They why would I?
?!
Posted by Bill Ward on April 6, 2011, 8:46 pm
On Wed, 06 Apr 2011 20:15:47 +0100, Giga2" <"Giga2 wrote:
>> On 4/6/2011 1:36 AM, Falcon wrote:
>>>>
>>> [..]
>>>>>> Oh yeah, opportunity cost. Always easy to forget. I think 5% is a
>>>>>> reasonable estimate for such figures. So the question is will it
>>>>>> still be worth quite a lot in 15 years?
>>>>>
>>>>> No.
>>>>
>>>> Because the newest generation panels will be better and a 10th of the
>>>> price?
>>>
>>> Joking aside, I'd put a few up if they WERE a tenth of the price and
>>> doing
>>> so didn't cost everyone else money in the form of higher electricity
>>> prices.
>>
>> Cost isn't the issue, cost /effectiveness/ IS.
>>
>> As soon as they are cost effective, I'll install them.
>>
>> At current prices, they are NOT cost effective, so why would I install
>> them?
>
>
> Maybe to do something for the general good?
Who decides what's the "general good"? Isn't that what the market is all
about?
>>> The cost of panels isn't the only factor to be considered when
>>> deciding to install them; like wind turbines, without generous Feed in
>>> tariffs working alongside the Renewables Obligation they would never
>>> pay their way. Currently these measures are adding around 15% to all
>>> fuel bills
>>> and that's expected to rise significantly as penetration levels
>>> increase.
>>>
>>> These are tough times for many people though. The government has said
>>> it will review FITs with a view to delivering £40 million of savings
>>> (around 10%) in 2014/15. How they intend to do that is anyone's guess.
>>> Reducing the
>>> guaranteed price perhaps? The DECC says "The review will be completed
>>> by the end of 2011, with tariffs remaining unchanged until April 2012"
>>> but add
>>> ... "(unless the review reveals a need for greater urgency)."
>>
>> So, how exactly does government 'reduce the price'?
>>
>>> Considering the fact that renewables subsidies are expected to amount
>>> to around £5 billion in 2020 through the renewables obligation alone
>>> and around £360 million through the climate change levy exemption
>>> (both figures
>>> in 2010 prices, quoted by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State
>>> to the DECC in Lord's Hansard 19 Jan 2011 : Column WA33), I expect the
>>> government's sense of 'urgency' could rise very soon.
>>
>> Subsidies don't reduce price, they just shift costs from one person to
>> another through compulsion.
>>
>>
>>> http://xrl.us/bjmpa6 (Link to www.decc.gov.uk)
>>>
>>>
Posted by Giga2 on April 7, 2011, 8:29 am
> On Wed, 06 Apr 2011 20:15:47 +0100, Giga2" <"Giga2 wrote:
>>> On 4/6/2011 1:36 AM, Falcon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> [..]
>>>>>>> Oh yeah, opportunity cost. Always easy to forget. I think 5% is a
>>>>>>> reasonable estimate for such figures. So the question is will it
>>>>>>> still be worth quite a lot in 15 years?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because the newest generation panels will be better and a 10th of the
>>>>> price?
>>>>
>>>> Joking aside, I'd put a few up if they WERE a tenth of the price and
>>>> doing
>>>> so didn't cost everyone else money in the form of higher electricity
>>>> prices.
>>>
>>> Cost isn't the issue, cost /effectiveness/ IS.
>>>
>>> As soon as they are cost effective, I'll install them.
>>>
>>> At current prices, they are NOT cost effective, so why would I install
>>> them?
>>
>>
>> Maybe to do something for the general good?
> Who decides what's the "general good"? Isn't that what the market is all
> about?
I would say the individual themselves must decide what they are to do, for
the general good or otherwise.
Posted by Bill Ward on April 7, 2011, 3:49 pm
On Thu, 07 Apr 2011 09:29:02 +0100, Giga2" <"Giga2 wrote:
>> On Wed, 06 Apr 2011 20:15:47 +0100, Giga2" <"Giga2 wrote:
>>
>>>> On 4/6/2011 1:36 AM, Falcon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>> [..]
>>>>>>>> Oh yeah, opportunity cost. Always easy to forget. I think 5% is a
>>>>>>>> reasonable estimate for such figures. So the question is will it
>>>>>>>> still be worth quite a lot in 15 years?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because the newest generation panels will be better and a 10th of
>>>>>> the price?
>>>>>
>>>>> Joking aside, I'd put a few up if they WERE a tenth of the price and
>>>>> doing
>>>>> so didn't cost everyone else money in the form of higher electricity
>>>>> prices.
>>>>
>>>> Cost isn't the issue, cost /effectiveness/ IS.
>>>>
>>>> As soon as they are cost effective, I'll install them.
>>>>
>>>> At current prices, they are NOT cost effective, so why would I
>>>> install them?
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe to do something for the general good?
>>
>> Who decides what's the "general good"? Isn't that what the market is
>> all about?
>>
> I would say the individual themselves must decide what they are to do,
> for the general good or otherwise.
Exactly. So why take my money so someone else can buy something I don't
think improves the common good? If they want to advance their idea of
the common good, they can do it with their money. Then they're entitled
to feel superior, if that's what's driving them.
Posted by Giga2 on April 7, 2011, 7:04 pm
> On Thu, 07 Apr 2011 09:29:02 +0100, Giga2" <"Giga2 wrote:
>>> On Wed, 06 Apr 2011 20:15:47 +0100, Giga2" <"Giga2 wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On 4/6/2011 1:36 AM, Falcon wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> [..]
>>>>>>>>> Oh yeah, opportunity cost. Always easy to forget. I think 5% is a
>>>>>>>>> reasonable estimate for such figures. So the question is will it
>>>>>>>>> still be worth quite a lot in 15 years?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because the newest generation panels will be better and a 10th of
>>>>>>> the price?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joking aside, I'd put a few up if they WERE a tenth of the price and
>>>>>> doing
>>>>>> so didn't cost everyone else money in the form of higher electricity
>>>>>> prices.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cost isn't the issue, cost /effectiveness/ IS.
>>>>>
>>>>> As soon as they are cost effective, I'll install them.
>>>>>
>>>>> At current prices, they are NOT cost effective, so why would I
>>>>> install them?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe to do something for the general good?
>>>
>>> Who decides what's the "general good"? Isn't that what the market is
>>> all about?
>>>
>> I would say the individual themselves must decide what they are to do,
>> for the general good or otherwise.
> Exactly. So why take my money so someone else can buy something I don't
> think improves the common good? If they want to advance their idea of
> the common good, they can do it with their money. Then they're entitled
> to feel superior, if that's what's driving them.
This has been decided through the democratic process. If you don't agree
with it fine but you may have to live with it.
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>>>
>>> I just want to see the bill.
>>
>> There is no bill to see. Are you going to buy me a PV system for the
>> "general good"?
> Of course not.