Posted by tensegriboy on April 19, 2011, 3:05 am
teh USA has been a cargo cult from southwest asia,
primarily, for years, hence "the God-am deficit,"
which was just parlayed on NPR into an official programme
of austerity, via some rating agency (Standard and Poor's?)
the only part of "AGW" that cannot stand-up
to actual analysis of real datasets [*],
is "global," because Eaaarthsceintists, in general,
do not comprehend spherical geometry,
let-alone spherical trig. (also,
plenty of studies show that the first impression
of the diminution of Eaaarth's most volatile ice
in the daytime of the Arctic floatilla, is silly,
as well, as well-documented occurences
of the Northwest Passage -- book your cruise!
Posted by Giga2 on April 6, 2011, 7:14 pm
>>
> [..]
>> >> Oh yeah, opportunity cost. Always easy to forget. I think 5% is a
>> >> reasonable estimate for such figures. So the question is will it still
>> >> be worth quite a lot in 15 years?
>> >
>> > No.
>>
>> Because the newest generation panels will be better and a 10th of the
>> price?
> Joking aside, I'd put a few up if they WERE a tenth of the price
So would and will everyone else, that is why renewables will explode given a
bit of a nudge IMHO.
>and doing
> so didn't cost everyone else money in the form of higher electricity
> prices. The cost of panels isn't the only factor to be considered when
> deciding to install them; like wind turbines, without generous Feed in
> tariffs working alongside the Renewables Obligation they would never pay
> their way. Currently these measures are adding around 15% to all fuel
> bills
> and that's expected to rise significantly as penetration levels increase.
If you personally choose to pay for your panels I don't see why everyone
else shouldn't be just grateful for your investment?
> These are tough times for many people though. The government has said it
> will review FITs with a view to delivering £40 million of savings (around
> 10%) in 2014/15. How they intend to do that is anyone's guess. Reducing
> the
> guaranteed price perhaps? The DECC says "The review will be completed by
> the end of 2011, with tariffs remaining unchanged until April 2012" but
> add
> ... "(unless the review reveals a need for greater urgency)."
> Considering the fact that renewables subsidies are expected to amount to
> around £5 billion in 2020
Good, could be more though!
> through the renewables obligation alone and
> around £360 million through the climate change levy exemption (both
> figures
> in 2010 prices, quoted by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State to
> the DECC in Lord's Hansard 19 Jan 2011 : Column WA33), I expect the
> government's sense of 'urgency' could rise very soon.
> http://xrl.us/bjmpa6 (Link to www.decc.gov.uk)
> --
> Falcon:
> fide, sed cui vide. (L)
>
Posted by Peter Franks on April 6, 2011, 7:23 pm
On 4/6/2011 12:14 PM, Giga2 <Giga2 wrote:
>>>
>> [..]
>>>>> Oh yeah, opportunity cost. Always easy to forget. I think 5% is a
>>>>> reasonable estimate for such figures. So the question is will it still
>>>>> be worth quite a lot in 15 years?
>>>>
>>>> No.
>>>
>>> Because the newest generation panels will be better and a 10th of the
>>> price?
>>
>> Joking aside, I'd put a few up if they WERE a tenth of the price
> So would and will everyone else, that is why renewables will explode given a
> bit of a nudge IMHO.
>> and doing
>> so didn't cost everyone else money in the form of higher electricity
>> prices. The cost of panels isn't the only factor to be considered when
>> deciding to install them; like wind turbines, without generous Feed in
>> tariffs working alongside the Renewables Obligation they would never pay
>> their way. Currently these measures are adding around 15% to all fuel
>> bills
>> and that's expected to rise significantly as penetration levels increase.
> If you personally choose to pay for your panels I don't see why everyone
> else shouldn't be just grateful for your investment?
>>
>> These are tough times for many people though. The government has said it
>> will review FITs with a view to delivering £40 million of savings (around
>> 10%) in 2014/15. How they intend to do that is anyone's guess. Reducing
>> the
>> guaranteed price perhaps? The DECC says "The review will be completed by
>> the end of 2011, with tariffs remaining unchanged until April 2012" but
>> add
>> ... "(unless the review reveals a need for greater urgency)."
>>
>> Considering the fact that renewables subsidies are expected to amount to
>> around £5 billion in 2020
> Good, could be more though!
(Government) Subsidies is a feel-good word for stealing. Taking $$ from
one group by force and giving to another.
There should be NO subsidies. Either it stands on its own, or it doesn't.
Posted by Bill Ward on April 6, 2011, 8:44 pm
On Wed, 06 Apr 2011 12:23:03 -0700, Peter Franks wrote:
> On 4/6/2011 12:14 PM, Giga2 <Giga2 wrote:
>>>>
>>> [..]
>>>>>> Oh yeah, opportunity cost. Always easy to forget. I think 5% is a
>>>>>> reasonable estimate for such figures. So the question is will it
>>>>>> still be worth quite a lot in 15 years?
>>>>>
>>>>> No.
>>>>
>>>> Because the newest generation panels will be better and a 10th of the
>>>> price?
>>>
>>> Joking aside, I'd put a few up if they WERE a tenth of the price
>>
>> So would and will everyone else, that is why renewables will explode
>> given a bit of a nudge IMHO.
>>
>>> and doing
>>> so didn't cost everyone else money in the form of higher electricity
>>> prices. The cost of panels isn't the only factor to be considered when
>>> deciding to install them; like wind turbines, without generous Feed in
>>> tariffs working alongside the Renewables Obligation they would never
>>> pay their way. Currently these measures are adding around 15% to all
>>> fuel bills
>>> and that's expected to rise significantly as penetration levels
>>> increase.
>>
>> If you personally choose to pay for your panels I don't see why
>> everyone else shouldn't be just grateful for your investment?
>>
>>
>>> These are tough times for many people though. The government has said
>>> it will review FITs with a view to delivering £40 million of savings
>>> (around 10%) in 2014/15. How they intend to do that is anyone's guess.
>>> Reducing the
>>> guaranteed price perhaps? The DECC says "The review will be completed
>>> by the end of 2011, with tariffs remaining unchanged until April 2012"
>>> but add
>>> ... "(unless the review reveals a need for greater urgency)."
>>>
>>> Considering the fact that renewables subsidies are expected to amount
>>> to around £5 billion in 2020
>>
>> Good, could be more though!
>
> (Government) Subsidies is a feel-good word for stealing. Taking $$ from
> one group by force and giving to another.
>
> There should be NO subsidies. Either it stands on its own, or it
> doesn't.
One of the unappreciated and perhaps unintended consequences of subsidies
is the destabilizing positive feedback it causes. Those who get
subsidies constitute a special interest group, who then reinvest some of
the subsidies in buying politicians who will increase the subsidies in
exchange for campaign donations. Look what's happened to corn ethanol.
If it needs subsidies, why do it? Private investors are savvy enough to
make a buck or two on new businesses, since when are bureaucrats better
investors than the private sector?
Posted by Peter Franks on April 6, 2011, 10:31 pm
On 4/6/2011 1:44 PM, Bill Ward wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Apr 2011 12:23:03 -0700, Peter Franks wrote:
>> On 4/6/2011 12:14 PM, Giga2<Giga2 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> [..]
>>>>>>> Oh yeah, opportunity cost. Always easy to forget. I think 5% is a
>>>>>>> reasonable estimate for such figures. So the question is will it
>>>>>>> still be worth quite a lot in 15 years?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because the newest generation panels will be better and a 10th of the
>>>>> price?
>>>>
>>>> Joking aside, I'd put a few up if they WERE a tenth of the price
>>>
>>> So would and will everyone else, that is why renewables will explode
>>> given a bit of a nudge IMHO.
>>>
>>>> and doing
>>>> so didn't cost everyone else money in the form of higher electricity
>>>> prices. The cost of panels isn't the only factor to be considered when
>>>> deciding to install them; like wind turbines, without generous Feed in
>>>> tariffs working alongside the Renewables Obligation they would never
>>>> pay their way. Currently these measures are adding around 15% to all
>>>> fuel bills
>>>> and that's expected to rise significantly as penetration levels
>>>> increase.
>>>
>>> If you personally choose to pay for your panels I don't see why
>>> everyone else shouldn't be just grateful for your investment?
>>>
>>>
>>>> These are tough times for many people though. The government has said
>>>> it will review FITs with a view to delivering £40 million of savings
>>>> (around 10%) in 2014/15. How they intend to do that is anyone's guess.
>>>> Reducing the
>>>> guaranteed price perhaps? The DECC says "The review will be completed
>>>> by the end of 2011, with tariffs remaining unchanged until April 2012"
>>>> but add
>>>> ... "(unless the review reveals a need for greater urgency)."
>>>>
>>>> Considering the fact that renewables subsidies are expected to amount
>>>> to around £5 billion in 2020
>>>
>>> Good, could be more though!
>>
>> (Government) Subsidies is a feel-good word for stealing. Taking $$ from
>> one group by force and giving to another.
>>
>> There should be NO subsidies. Either it stands on its own, or it
>> doesn't.
> One of the unappreciated and perhaps unintended consequences of subsidies
> is the destabilizing positive feedback it causes. Those who get
> subsidies constitute a special interest group, who then reinvest some of
> the subsidies in buying politicians who will increase the subsidies in
> exchange for campaign donations. Look what's happened to corn ethanol.
> If it needs subsidies, why do it? Private investors are savvy enough to
> make a buck or two on new businesses, since when are bureaucrats better
> investors than the private sector?
They aren't! Just look at the manifold historical examples!!!
> [..]
>> >> Oh yeah, opportunity cost. Always easy to forget. I think 5% is a
>> >> reasonable estimate for such figures. So the question is will it still
>> >> be worth quite a lot in 15 years?
>> >
>> > No.
>>
>> Because the newest generation panels will be better and a 10th of the
>> price?
> Joking aside, I'd put a few up if they WERE a tenth of the price