Posted by Unum on April 8, 2011, 4:07 pm
On 4/8/2011 2:50 AM, Bill Ward wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Apr 2011 22:41:45 -0500, z wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> Can you think of any examples where subsidies actually worked? In my
>>>>> experience, they simply divert money away from the alternatives that
>>>>> private investment prefers in favor of government favorites. In
>> turn,
>>>>> that money attracts the best talent into projects that can clearly be
>>>>> seen to be doomed to failure, but hey, a job's a job.
>>>>
>>>> That's exactly what is going on with oil. The USA hides the true cost
>>>> of oil through corporate welfare and all number of polices designed to
>>>> keep gas and oil cheap for US consumers.
>>>>
>>>> If we paid the true price of oil at the pump things would change right
>>>> quick.
>>>
>>> Exactly what is the "true price of oil", and how is it determined? Who
>>> makes it up?
>>>
>>>
>> I don't know the true cost.
> Then why did you make your claim? Are you subtracting all the royalties
> and taxes already paid on oil both by oil companies and drivers from your
> "subsidies"? If you have no actual numbers, you have no claim.
Notice that bill ward didn't dispute the premise - hidden costs that
keep gas and oil artificially cheap - but if you can't come up with
an EXACT number your claim must be invalid, lol.
Royalties and taxes already figure into the price of gas at the pump of
course, they are direct costs and not hidden, so that challenge is bogus.
The amount of money paid to subsidize fossil fuels around the
world was $57 billion in 2008, which is up from $42 billion in
the previous year. This doen't include the cost of military actions
in the middle east and environmental damages resulting from the mining,
refining, and burning of fossil fuels.
http://www.iea.org/files/energy_subsidies.pdf
Posted by Desertphile on April 8, 2011, 4:26 pm
wrote:
> On 4/8/2011 2:50 AM, Bill Ward wrote:
> > On Thu, 07 Apr 2011 22:41:45 -0500, z wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>>> Can you think of any examples where subsidies actually worked? In my
> >>>>> experience, they simply divert money away from the alternatives that
> >>>>> private investment prefers in favor of government favorites. In
> >> turn,
> >>>>> that money attracts the best talent into projects that can clearly be
> >>>>> seen to be doomed to failure, but hey, a job's a job.
> >>>>
> >>>> That's exactly what is going on with oil. The USA hides the true cost
> >>>> of oil through corporate welfare and all number of polices designed to
> >>>> keep gas and oil cheap for US consumers.
> >>>>
> >>>> If we paid the true price of oil at the pump things would change right
> >>>> quick.
> >>>
> >>> Exactly what is the "true price of oil", and how is it determined? Who
> >>> makes it up?
> >>>
> >>>
> >> I don't know the true cost.
> >
> > Then why did you make your claim? Are you subtracting all the royalties
> > and taxes already paid on oil both by oil companies and drivers from your
> > "subsidies"? If you have no actual numbers, you have no claim.
>
> Notice that bill ward didn't dispute the premise - hidden costs that
> keep gas and oil artificially cheap - but if you can't come up with
> an EXACT number your claim must be invalid, lol.
>
> Royalties and taxes already figure into the price of gas at the pump of
> course, they are direct costs and not hidden, so that challenge is bogus.
>
> The amount of money paid to subsidize fossil fuels around the
> world was $57 billion in 2008, which is up from $42 billion in
> the previous year. This doen't include the cost of military actions
> in the middle east and environmental damages resulting from the mining,
> refining, and burning of fossil fuels.
>
> http://www.iea.org/files/energy_subsidies.pdf
Nor does it reflect the non-payment of leases on American Indian
land; the Federal Government is supposed to collect that money for
the Indians, but it refuses to do so.
--
http://desertphile.org
Desertphile's Desert Soliloquy. WARNING: view with plenty of water
"Why aren't resurrections from the dead noteworthy?" -- Jim Rutz
Posted by z on April 8, 2011, 4:57 pm
> On Thu, 07 Apr 2011 22:41:45 -0500, z wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> Can you think of any examples where subsidies actually worked? In
>>>>> my experience, they simply divert money away from the alternatives
>>>>> that private investment prefers in favor of government favorites.
>>>>> In
>> turn,
>>>>> that money attracts the best talent into projects that can clearly
>>>>> be seen to be doomed to failure, but hey, a job's a job.
>>>>
>>>> That's exactly what is going on with oil. The USA hides the true
>>>> cost of oil through corporate welfare and all number of polices
>>>> designed to keep gas and oil cheap for US consumers.
>>>>
>>>> If we paid the true price of oil at the pump things would change
>>>> right quick.
>>>
>>> Exactly what is the "true price of oil", and how is it determined?
>>> Who makes it up?
>>>
>>>
>> I don't know the true cost.
>
> Then why did you make your claim? Are you subtracting all the
> royalties and taxes already paid on oil both by oil companies and
> drivers from your "subsidies"? If you have no actual numbers, you
> have no claim.
It's quite easy to subtract Exxon Mobile taxes paid (zero). The number
would be variable depending how many fishermen were put out of work that
year or if we had to bomb some country or not. In any case plenty of folk
have made attempts at an accurate number.
So I'm saying A LOT.
I was agreeing with you that governments messing with markets by using
subsidies causes an imbalance or disruption in costs and innovation. Our
cheap oil keeps us from being forced to develop more efficient cars and
so on.
For kicks you can google:
true price of a gallon of gas
$5.14 a gallon, according to the International Centre for Technology
Assessment. (a summery: http://www.progress.org/cobb01.htm )
Here is another summery of various studies:
http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/oil-gas-crude/461
http://www.ndcf.org - links to 2007 report by Copulos (late of the
Heritage Foundation) on the true cost of oil. He puts it at price at the
pump + $.35
see: http://ndcf.dyndns.org/ndcf/energy/NDCF_Hidden_Cost_2006
_summary_paper.pdf
for an overview of the various factors used to calculate that number,
keeping in mind these are 2006/2007 numbers.
Other numbers are floating around from $0 a gal and on up. Some of the
estimates are older but it comes down to 2 to 4 times what we pay at the
pump if the estimates are accurate.
Whatever number you come up with is going to be more than what we pay at
the pump.
>
>> But you have all the tax breaks to the
>> likes of Exxon Mobile (paid zero federal income tax in 2009 despite
>> billions of profit), BP etc as a cost. Then you have stuff like
>> massive oil spills (people are still paying for the Valdez spill that
>> has been in litigation for what.. 20 years?
>> see
>> http://www.portfolio.com/business-news/portfolio/2009/03/23/Exxon-
> Valdez-
>> Lawsuit-History
>>
>> I guess some checks finally went out but give me a break. 20+ years
>> late.
>> )
>>
>> Then factor in our continued involvement in the Middle East --
>> various military actions, sending billions to oil friendly
>> governments, proping up dicators who then eventually turn on us and
>> so on. It all costs a HELL OF A LOT to keep the gas prices under $.
>>
>>
>> I'm sure you can come up with more examples of tax payer dollars
>> going to support cheap (ish), stable supply of oil for the USA. If
>> every dime of that effort was paid in the form of a tax at the pump
>> people would shit bricks.
>>
>> As it is we're just borrowing that money from the Chinese so it's no
>> biggie I guess
>>
>> -z
>
Posted by Bill Ward on April 8, 2011, 5:53 pm
On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 11:57:40 -0500, z wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 07 Apr 2011 22:41:45 -0500, z wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> Can you think of any examples where subsidies actually worked? In
>>>>>> my experience, they simply divert money away from the alternatives
>>>>>> that private investment prefers in favor of government favorites.
>>>>>> In
>>> turn,
>>>>>> that money attracts the best talent into projects that can clearly
>>>>>> be seen to be doomed to failure, but hey, a job's a job.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's exactly what is going on with oil. The USA hides the true
>>>>> cost of oil through corporate welfare and all number of polices
>>>>> designed to keep gas and oil cheap for US consumers.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we paid the true price of oil at the pump things would change
>>>>> right quick.
>>>>
>>>> Exactly what is the "true price of oil", and how is it determined?
>>>> Who makes it up?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I don't know the true cost.
>>
>> Then why did you make your claim? Are you subtracting all the
>> royalties and taxes already paid on oil both by oil companies and
>> drivers from your "subsidies"? If you have no actual numbers, you have
>> no claim.
>
> It's quite easy to subtract Exxon Mobile taxes paid (zero). The number
> would be variable depending how many fishermen were put out of work that
> year or if we had to bomb some country or not. In any case plenty of
> folk have made attempts at an accurate number.
>
>
> So I'm saying A LOT.
For me to believe that, you'd need to show evidence that the amount the
government receives due to oil related taxes and royalties is less than
that paid out in "subsidies". If the net income is positive, how can
there be a subsidy?
> I was agreeing with you that governments messing with markets by using
> subsidies causes an imbalance or disruption in costs and innovation.
> Our cheap oil keeps us from being forced to develop more efficient cars
> and so on.
But you couldn't actually show any subsidy, and admit you don't even know
the "true price of oil" or any consistent, defendable way to calculate
it. Is it something you make up to scare people and collect rent?
> For kicks you can google:
> true price of a gallon of gas
>
> $5.14 a gallon, according to the International Centre for Technology
> Assessment. (a summery: http://www.progress.org/cobb01.htm )
>
> Here is another summery of various studies:
> http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/oil-gas-crude/461
>
> http://www.ndcf.org - links to 2007 report by Copulos (late of the
> Heritage Foundation) on the true cost of oil. He puts it at price at
> the pump + $.35
>
> see: http://ndcf.dyndns.org/ndcf/energy/NDCF_Hidden_Cost_2006
> _summary_paper.pdf
>
> for an overview of the various factors used to calculate that number,
> keeping in mind these are 2006/2007 numbers.
Looks like "economic justice" at work to me.
> Other numbers are floating around from $0 a gal and on up. Some of the
> estimates are older but it comes down to 2 to 4 times what we pay at the
> pump if the estimates are accurate.
>
> Whatever number you come up with is going to be more than what we pay at
> the pump.
That would be you making up the number, not me.
>>> But you have all the tax breaks to the
>>> likes of Exxon Mobile (paid zero federal income tax in 2009 despite
>>> billions of profit), BP etc as a cost. Then you have stuff like
>>> massive oil spills (people are still paying for the Valdez spill that
>>> has been in litigation for what.. 20 years? see
>>> http://www.portfolio.com/business-news/portfolio/2009/03/23/Exxon-
>> Valdez-
>>> Lawsuit-History
>>>
>>> I guess some checks finally went out but give me a break. 20+ years
>>> late.
>>> )
>>>
>>> Then factor in our continued involvement in the Middle East -- various
>>> military actions, sending billions to oil friendly governments,
>>> proping up dicators who then eventually turn on us and so on. It all
>>> costs a HELL OF A LOT to keep the gas prices under $.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm sure you can come up with more examples of tax payer dollars going
>>> to support cheap (ish), stable supply of oil for the USA. If every
>>> dime of that effort was paid in the form of a tax at the pump people
>>> would shit bricks.
>>>
>>> As it is we're just borrowing that money from the Chinese so it's no
>>> biggie I guess
>>>
>>> -z
>>
Posted by Unum on April 8, 2011, 11:07 pm
On 4/8/2011 12:53 PM, Bill Ward wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 11:57:40 -0500, z wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Apr 2011 22:41:45 -0500, z wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> Can you think of any examples where subsidies actually worked? In
>>>>>>> my experience, they simply divert money away from the alternatives
>>>>>>> that private investment prefers in favor of government favorites.
>>>>>>> In
>>>> turn,
>>>>>>> that money attracts the best talent into projects that can clearly
>>>>>>> be seen to be doomed to failure, but hey, a job's a job.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's exactly what is going on with oil. The USA hides the true
>>>>>> cost of oil through corporate welfare and all number of polices
>>>>>> designed to keep gas and oil cheap for US consumers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If we paid the true price of oil at the pump things would change
>>>>>> right quick.
>>>>>
>>>>> Exactly what is the "true price of oil", and how is it determined?
>>>>> Who makes it up?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I don't know the true cost.
>>>
>>> Then why did you make your claim? Are you subtracting all the
>>> royalties and taxes already paid on oil both by oil companies and
>>> drivers from your "subsidies"? If you have no actual numbers, you have
>>> no claim.
>>
>> It's quite easy to subtract Exxon Mobile taxes paid (zero). The number
>> would be variable depending how many fishermen were put out of work that
>> year or if we had to bomb some country or not. In any case plenty of
>> folk have made attempts at an accurate number.
>>
>>
>> So I'm saying A LOT.
> For me to believe that, you'd need to show evidence that the amount the
> government receives due to oil related taxes and royalties is less than
> that paid out in "subsidies". If the net income is positive, how can
> there be a subsidy?
Haw! Let's examine this argument. You lease my land and extract minerals
that I own from it to sell, and pay me for the privilege. Then I should
turn around and hand the money back to you, but as long as I don't
give back every penny it isn't a subsidy. Lol, this must be some kind
of Tea Party arithmetic.
>> I was agreeing with you that governments messing with markets by using
>> subsidies causes an imbalance or disruption in costs and innovation.
>> Our cheap oil keeps us from being forced to develop more efficient cars
>> and so on.
> But you couldn't actually show any subsidy, and admit you don't even know
> the "true price of oil" or any consistent, defendable way to calculate
> it. Is it something you make up to scare people and collect rent?
http://www.iea.org/files/energy_subsidies.pdf
>> For kicks you can google:
>> true price of a gallon of gas
>>
>> $5.14 a gallon, according to the International Centre for Technology
>> Assessment. (a summery: http://www.progress.org/cobb01.htm )
>>
>> Here is another summery of various studies:
>> http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/oil-gas-crude/461
>>
>> http://www.ndcf.org - links to 2007 report by Copulos (late of the
>> Heritage Foundation) on the true cost of oil. He puts it at price at
>> the pump + $.35
>>
>> see: http://ndcf.dyndns.org/ndcf/energy/NDCF_Hidden_Cost_2006
>> _summary_paper.pdf
>>
>> for an overview of the various factors used to calculate that number,
>> keeping in mind these are 2006/2007 numbers.
> Looks like "economic justice" at work to me.
Yeah that's the form of "justice" where the rich get richer and
the poor get poorer, meanwhile the world gets more and more dirty.
>> Other numbers are floating around from $0 a gal and on up. Some of the
>> estimates are older but it comes down to 2 to 4 times what we pay at the
>> pump if the estimates are accurate.
>>
>> Whatever number you come up with is going to be more than what we pay at
>> the pump.
> That would be you making up the number, not me.
Obviously not, he gave justification for the estimates whereas bill
ward hasn't done anything but talk through his ass.
>>>> But you have all the tax breaks to the
>>>> likes of Exxon Mobile (paid zero federal income tax in 2009 despite
>>>> billions of profit), BP etc as a cost. Then you have stuff like
>>>> massive oil spills (people are still paying for the Valdez spill that
>>>> has been in litigation for what.. 20 years? see
>>>> http://www.portfolio.com/business-news/portfolio/2009/03/23/Exxon-
>>> Valdez-
>>>> Lawsuit-History
>>>>
>>>> I guess some checks finally went out but give me a break. 20+ years
>>>> late.
>>>> )
>>>>
>>>> Then factor in our continued involvement in the Middle East -- various
>>>> military actions, sending billions to oil friendly governments,
>>>> proping up dicators who then eventually turn on us and so on. It all
>>>> costs a HELL OF A LOT to keep the gas prices under $.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure you can come up with more examples of tax payer dollars going
>>>> to support cheap (ish), stable supply of oil for the USA. If every
>>>> dime of that effort was paid in the form of a tax at the pump people
>>>> would shit bricks.
>>>>
>>>> As it is we're just borrowing that money from the Chinese so it's no
>>>> biggie I guess
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> Can you think of any examples where subsidies actually worked? In my
>>>>> experience, they simply divert money away from the alternatives that
>>>>> private investment prefers in favor of government favorites. In
>> turn,
>>>>> that money attracts the best talent into projects that can clearly be
>>>>> seen to be doomed to failure, but hey, a job's a job.
>>>>
>>>> That's exactly what is going on with oil. The USA hides the true cost
>>>> of oil through corporate welfare and all number of polices designed to
>>>> keep gas and oil cheap for US consumers.
>>>>
>>>> If we paid the true price of oil at the pump things would change right
>>>> quick.
>>>
>>> Exactly what is the "true price of oil", and how is it determined? Who
>>> makes it up?
>>>
>>>
>> I don't know the true cost.
> Then why did you make your claim? Are you subtracting all the royalties
> and taxes already paid on oil both by oil companies and drivers from your
> "subsidies"? If you have no actual numbers, you have no claim.