Posted by Giga2 on April 7, 2011, 12:48 pm
> On 04/07/2011 10:22 AM, Giga2 <Giga2 wrote:
>>> On 04/06/2011 11:33 PM, John wrote:
>>>>> On 04/06/2011 05:14 PM, Vaughn wrote:
>>>>>> wrote
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> After all its pretty much a solid-state component with no moving
>>>>>>> parts
>>>>>> "Pretty much" yes, but it's the exceptions that kill you. Most
>>>>>> inverters
>>>>>> incorporate both fans and electrolytic capacitors. Neither of those
>>>>>> items
>>>>>> last forever, either will cause failure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't see any particular reason they wouldn't last for 50 years
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 50 years is wildly optimistic. There are too many things that can
>>>>>> happen
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> any installation. Some of them have little or nothing to do with the
>>>>>> robustness of the design. Equipment can get zapped by line surges or
>>>>>> lightning, can get wet, stolen, attacked by bugs or rodents,
>>>>>> displaced
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> home repairs& renovations; the list goes on...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vaughn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Then there's the question whether the roof it's mounted on will
>>>>> last
>>>>> 50
>>>>> years. It's written off after 20 years anyway. How much do you worry
>>>>> whether your new car will last 20 years or 50 years?
>>>>
>>>> This is interesting. Whereabouts in central Europe are you located Tom.
>>>> How much sun relative to say the south UK?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> About the same latitude - Germany.
>>>
>>
>> To be fair latitude isn't the only factor here. Cloudiness is also
>> important. I lived in Germany and summers were much longer and warmer and
>> even winters were brighter (tho colder) in general.
>>
>>
> There are some figures here -
> http://www.climatedata.eu/continent.php?cid 0&lang=en
> The south coast of England is even sunnier, despite all rumours to the
> contrary.
Shocking! Do you know why concentrated solar, using lenses to intensify the
light, isn't being used yet? Surely you *could* make these panels 10x more
efficient just by incresing their collection area by 10x for the same
silicon!? Just print a sheet of lenses the same size and at the focus of
each a small 'panel' a tenth the size of the current silicon.
Posted by Tom P on April 7, 2011, 1:01 pm
On 04/07/2011 02:48 PM, Giga2 <Giga2 wrote:
>> On 04/07/2011 10:22 AM, Giga2<Giga2 wrote:
>>>> On 04/06/2011 11:33 PM, John wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/06/2011 05:14 PM, Vaughn wrote:
>>>>>>> wrote
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> After all its pretty much a solid-state component with no moving
>>>>>>>> parts
>>>>>>> "Pretty much" yes, but it's the exceptions that kill you. Most
>>>>>>> inverters
>>>>>>> incorporate both fans and electrolytic capacitors. Neither of those
>>>>>>> items
>>>>>>> last forever, either will cause failure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can't see any particular reason they wouldn't last for 50 years
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 50 years is wildly optimistic. There are too many things that can
>>>>>>> happen
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> any installation. Some of them have little or nothing to do with the
>>>>>>> robustness of the design. Equipment can get zapped by line surges or
>>>>>>> lightning, can get wet, stolen, attacked by bugs or rodents,
>>>>>>> displaced
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> home repairs& renovations; the list goes on...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Vaughn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then there's the question whether the roof it's mounted on will
>>>>>> last
>>>>>> 50
>>>>>> years. It's written off after 20 years anyway. How much do you worry
>>>>>> whether your new car will last 20 years or 50 years?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is interesting. Whereabouts in central Europe are you located Tom.
>>>>> How much sun relative to say the south UK?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> About the same latitude - Germany.
>>>>
>>>
>>> To be fair latitude isn't the only factor here. Cloudiness is also
>>> important. I lived in Germany and summers were much longer and warmer and
>>> even winters were brighter (tho colder) in general.
>>>
>>>
>> There are some figures here -
>> http://www.climatedata.eu/continent.php?cid 0&lang=en
>>
>> The south coast of England is even sunnier, despite all rumours to the
>> contrary.
>>
>>
> Shocking! Do you know why concentrated solar, using lenses to intensify the
> light, isn't being used yet? Surely you *could* make these panels 10x more
> efficient just by incresing their collection area by 10x for the same
> silicon!? Just print a sheet of lenses the same size and at the focus of
> each a small 'panel' a tenth the size of the current silicon.
I have heard of such a technology - a sheet of plastic embedded with
"fly's eye" lenses covering the matrix carrying the PV cells. The idea
is that the smaller PV cells at the focus point can use a more expensive
but more advanced technology.
I don't know what the official brand name is, if any. The disadvantage
is that the panel needs to be steerable to be effective, and you will
still need the same area as a normal PV panel. As the current conversion
efficiency is around 10-15%, you would need super performance cells of
100% efficiency to justify a 10:1 magnification.
Posted by sno on April 7, 2011, 2:28 pm
On 4/7/2011 8:01 AM, Tom P wrote:
> On 04/07/2011 02:48 PM, Giga2 <Giga2 wrote:
>>> On 04/07/2011 10:22 AM, Giga2<Giga2 wrote:
>>>>> On 04/06/2011 11:33 PM, John wrote:
>>>>>>> On 04/06/2011 05:14 PM, Vaughn wrote:
>>>>>>>> wrote
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> After all its pretty much a solid-state component with no moving
>>>>>>>>> parts
>>>>>>>> "Pretty much" yes, but it's the exceptions that kill you. Most
>>>>>>>> inverters
>>>>>>>> incorporate both fans and electrolytic capacitors. Neither of those
>>>>>>>> items
>>>>>>>> last forever, either will cause failure.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can't see any particular reason they wouldn't last for 50 years
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 50 years is wildly optimistic. There are too many things that can
>>>>>>>> happen
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> any installation. Some of them have little or nothing to do with
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> robustness of the design. Equipment can get zapped by line
>>>>>>>> surges or
>>>>>>>> lightning, can get wet, stolen, attacked by bugs or rodents,
>>>>>>>> displaced
>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>> home repairs& renovations; the list goes on...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vaughn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then there's the question whether the roof it's mounted on will
>>>>>>> last
>>>>>>> 50
>>>>>>> years. It's written off after 20 years anyway. How much do you worry
>>>>>>> whether your new car will last 20 years or 50 years?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is interesting. Whereabouts in central Europe are you located
>>>>>> Tom.
>>>>>> How much sun relative to say the south UK?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> About the same latitude - Germany.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To be fair latitude isn't the only factor here. Cloudiness is also
>>>> important. I lived in Germany and summers were much longer and
>>>> warmer and
>>>> even winters were brighter (tho colder) in general.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> There are some figures here -
>>> http://www.climatedata.eu/continent.php?cid 0&lang=en
>>>
>>> The south coast of England is even sunnier, despite all rumours to the
>>> contrary.
>>>
>>>
>> Shocking! Do you know why concentrated solar, using lenses to
>> intensify the
>> light, isn't being used yet? Surely you *could* make these panels 10x
>> more
>> efficient just by incresing their collection area by 10x for the same
>> silicon!? Just print a sheet of lenses the same size and at the focus of
>> each a small 'panel' a tenth the size of the current silicon.
>>
>>
> I have heard of such a technology - a sheet of plastic embedded with
> "fly's eye" lenses covering the matrix carrying the PV cells. The idea
> is that the smaller PV cells at the focus point can use a more expensive
> but more advanced technology.
> I don't know what the official brand name is, if any. The disadvantage
> is that the panel needs to be steerable to be effective, and you will
> still need the same area as a normal PV panel. As the current conversion
> efficiency is around 10-15%, you would need super performance cells of
> 100% efficiency to justify a 10:1 magnification.
I have heard that concentrating the sun like this can cause the cells to
heat up....greatly reducing their efficiency....I do not imagine one or
two sun power increases would cause much heating...
have fun.....sno
have fun sno
--
Correct Scientific Terminology:
Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
to be generally assumed to be true.
Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
Posted by Giga2 on April 7, 2011, 7:02 pm
> On 4/7/2011 8:01 AM, Tom P wrote:
>> On 04/07/2011 02:48 PM, Giga2 <Giga2 wrote:
>>>> On 04/07/2011 10:22 AM, Giga2<Giga2 wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/06/2011 11:33 PM, John wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 04/06/2011 05:14 PM, Vaughn wrote:
>>>>>>>>> wrote
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> After all its pretty much a solid-state component with no moving
>>>>>>>>>> parts
>>>>>>>>> "Pretty much" yes, but it's the exceptions that kill you. Most
>>>>>>>>> inverters
>>>>>>>>> incorporate both fans and electrolytic capacitors. Neither of
>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>> items
>>>>>>>>> last forever, either will cause failure.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I can't see any particular reason they wouldn't last for 50 years
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 50 years is wildly optimistic. There are too many things that can
>>>>>>>>> happen
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> any installation. Some of them have little or nothing to do with
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> robustness of the design. Equipment can get zapped by line
>>>>>>>>> surges or
>>>>>>>>> lightning, can get wet, stolen, attacked by bugs or rodents,
>>>>>>>>> displaced
>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> home repairs& renovations; the list goes on...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Vaughn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then there's the question whether the roof it's mounted on will
>>>>>>>> last
>>>>>>>> 50
>>>>>>>> years. It's written off after 20 years anyway. How much do you
>>>>>>>> worry
>>>>>>>> whether your new car will last 20 years or 50 years?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is interesting. Whereabouts in central Europe are you located
>>>>>>> Tom.
>>>>>>> How much sun relative to say the south UK?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> About the same latitude - Germany.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To be fair latitude isn't the only factor here. Cloudiness is also
>>>>> important. I lived in Germany and summers were much longer and
>>>>> warmer and
>>>>> even winters were brighter (tho colder) in general.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> There are some figures here -
>>>> http://www.climatedata.eu/continent.php?cid 0&lang=en
>>>>
>>>> The south coast of England is even sunnier, despite all rumours to the
>>>> contrary.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Shocking! Do you know why concentrated solar, using lenses to
>>> intensify the
>>> light, isn't being used yet? Surely you *could* make these panels 10x
>>> more
>>> efficient just by incresing their collection area by 10x for the same
>>> silicon!? Just print a sheet of lenses the same size and at the focus of
>>> each a small 'panel' a tenth the size of the current silicon.
>>>
>>>
>> I have heard of such a technology - a sheet of plastic embedded with
>> "fly's eye" lenses covering the matrix carrying the PV cells. The idea
>> is that the smaller PV cells at the focus point can use a more expensive
>> but more advanced technology.
>> I don't know what the official brand name is, if any. The disadvantage
>> is that the panel needs to be steerable to be effective, and you will
>> still need the same area as a normal PV panel. As the current conversion
>> efficiency is around 10-15%, you would need super performance cells of
>> 100% efficiency to justify a 10:1 magnification.
> I have heard that concentrating the sun like this can cause the cells to
> heat up....greatly reducing their efficiency....I do not imagine one or
> two sun power increases would cause much heating...
Also that would happen when there was a lot of sunlight around, and fairly
direct. Maybe you need just right sombination of lenses to panel for the
average sunlight in your area.
> have fun.....sno
> have fun sno
> --
> Correct Scientific Terminology:
> Hypothesis - a guess as to why or how something occurs
> Theory - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
> to be generally assumed to be true.
> Law - a hypothesis that has been checked by enough experiments
> in enough different ways that it is assumed to be truer then a theory.
> Note: nothing is proven in science, things are assumed to be true.
>
Posted by Peter Franks on April 9, 2011, 2:01 am
On 4/7/2011 7:28 AM, sno wrote:
> On 4/7/2011 8:01 AM, Tom P wrote:
>> On 04/07/2011 02:48 PM, Giga2 <Giga2 wrote:
>>>> On 04/07/2011 10:22 AM, Giga2<Giga2 wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/06/2011 11:33 PM, John wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 04/06/2011 05:14 PM, Vaughn wrote:
>>>>>>>>> wrote
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> After all its pretty much a solid-state component with no moving
>>>>>>>>>> parts
>>>>>>>>> "Pretty much" yes, but it's the exceptions that kill you. Most
>>>>>>>>> inverters
>>>>>>>>> incorporate both fans and electrolytic capacitors. Neither of
>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>> items
>>>>>>>>> last forever, either will cause failure.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I can't see any particular reason they wouldn't last for 50 years
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 50 years is wildly optimistic. There are too many things that can
>>>>>>>>> happen
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> any installation. Some of them have little or nothing to do with
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> robustness of the design. Equipment can get zapped by line
>>>>>>>>> surges or
>>>>>>>>> lightning, can get wet, stolen, attacked by bugs or rodents,
>>>>>>>>> displaced
>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> home repairs& renovations; the list goes on...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Vaughn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then there's the question whether the roof it's mounted on will
>>>>>>>> last
>>>>>>>> 50
>>>>>>>> years. It's written off after 20 years anyway. How much do you
>>>>>>>> worry
>>>>>>>> whether your new car will last 20 years or 50 years?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is interesting. Whereabouts in central Europe are you located
>>>>>>> Tom.
>>>>>>> How much sun relative to say the south UK?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> About the same latitude - Germany.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To be fair latitude isn't the only factor here. Cloudiness is also
>>>>> important. I lived in Germany and summers were much longer and
>>>>> warmer and
>>>>> even winters were brighter (tho colder) in general.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> There are some figures here -
>>>> http://www.climatedata.eu/continent.php?cid 0&lang=en
>>>>
>>>> The south coast of England is even sunnier, despite all rumours to the
>>>> contrary.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Shocking! Do you know why concentrated solar, using lenses to
>>> intensify the
>>> light, isn't being used yet? Surely you *could* make these panels 10x
>>> more
>>> efficient just by incresing their collection area by 10x for the same
>>> silicon!? Just print a sheet of lenses the same size and at the focus of
>>> each a small 'panel' a tenth the size of the current silicon.
>>>
>>>
>> I have heard of such a technology - a sheet of plastic embedded with
>> "fly's eye" lenses covering the matrix carrying the PV cells. The idea
>> is that the smaller PV cells at the focus point can use a more expensive
>> but more advanced technology.
>> I don't know what the official brand name is, if any. The disadvantage
>> is that the panel needs to be steerable to be effective, and you will
>> still need the same area as a normal PV panel. As the current conversion
>> efficiency is around 10-15%, you would need super performance cells of
>> 100% efficiency to justify a 10:1 magnification.
> I have heard that concentrating the sun like this can cause the cells to
> heat up....greatly reducing their efficiency....I do not imagine one or
> two sun power increases would cause much heating...
No, actually the most efficient cells operate at 300-400 suns.
>>> On 04/06/2011 11:33 PM, John wrote:
>>>>> On 04/06/2011 05:14 PM, Vaughn wrote:
>>>>>> wrote
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> After all its pretty much a solid-state component with no moving
>>>>>>> parts
>>>>>> "Pretty much" yes, but it's the exceptions that kill you. Most
>>>>>> inverters
>>>>>> incorporate both fans and electrolytic capacitors. Neither of those
>>>>>> items
>>>>>> last forever, either will cause failure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't see any particular reason they wouldn't last for 50 years
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 50 years is wildly optimistic. There are too many things that can
>>>>>> happen
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> any installation. Some of them have little or nothing to do with the
>>>>>> robustness of the design. Equipment can get zapped by line surges or
>>>>>> lightning, can get wet, stolen, attacked by bugs or rodents,
>>>>>> displaced
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> home repairs& renovations; the list goes on...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vaughn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Then there's the question whether the roof it's mounted on will
>>>>> last
>>>>> 50
>>>>> years. It's written off after 20 years anyway. How much do you worry
>>>>> whether your new car will last 20 years or 50 years?
>>>>
>>>> This is interesting. Whereabouts in central Europe are you located Tom.
>>>> How much sun relative to say the south UK?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> About the same latitude - Germany.
>>>
>>
>> To be fair latitude isn't the only factor here. Cloudiness is also
>> important. I lived in Germany and summers were much longer and warmer and
>> even winters were brighter (tho colder) in general.
>>
>>
> There are some figures here -
> http://www.climatedata.eu/continent.php?cid 0&lang=en
> The south coast of England is even sunnier, despite all rumours to the
> contrary.