Posted by Eeyore on July 28, 2008, 11:50 am
Don T wrote:
> >
> > I concur largely with your broad objectives but have they really been good
> > value for money compared say to good intelligence for example
> <snip>
> I don't know. History will judge that one.
Amd I'm sure it will judge it very badly.
> and what did Iraq have to do eith it ?
> I know that a number of "plots" have been foiled by various country's
> intelligence services -since- 9-11 and that al-qaida's own "press
> releases" stated that Iraq was the central fight against the "infidels".
> Iraq started long before 9-11. Iraq started when Iraq invaded Kuwait. The
> various acts of criminality and contempt under Saddam Hussein prior to the
> "invasion", including mass murders, and attempts at WMD production (
> remember, Bill Clinton's reason for bombing the shit out of Baghdad and
> cetera were explained as attempts to destroy WMD facilities. ) were ongoing,
> several high ranking, wanted by international police forces, terrorists were
> living openly and freely in Baghdad, and terrorist training camps were on
> the Iraq side of the Iraq/Iran border. Violations of the UN Cease-fire
> agreement.
Minor violations. A nation saying "we're not broken yet. No more than that.
> Blatant violations with, it seems, collusion from high ranking UN
> officials. Escalating violations after the war in Afghanistan was initiated.
> I can't, in a short posting, teach you things about 18 years of history
> that, if your awareness was active during those years, you ought need no
> lesson to know. But it is apparent that you don't know those things or you
> wouldn't have asked "what did Iraq have to do with it ?". I suggest you
> look it up. Get more than one source. Be aware that it will take you a while
> because the answer is not simple at all.
Almost entirely pure intelligemce myth planted in the heads of the neocons by
Saddam's opponents who hoped to run the country after it was over-run by US (and
UK) troops.
You were HAD.
Read up about Dr David Kelly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly_ (weapons_expert)
"They are not mobile germ warfare laboratories. You could not use them for
making biological weapons. They do not even look like them. They are exactly
what the Iraqis said they were - facilities for the production of hydrogen gas
to fill balloons"
Rumour has it he was 'eliminated' lest he tell the truth. It was to look like
suicide but it doesn't look right.
I strongly suggest you read that article in depth. And there's so much more.
Also.
http://25by4.channel4.com/chapter_3/article_7
http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/G/government_inspector/
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0449030/
Also see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century
And READ their site (oh it seems to have vanished). Along with the evidence.
"As of July 8, 2008, The Project for the New American Century website is
inoperable. A message saying that the account has been suspended and to contact
the billing department was put on the site's page."
Now why would they do that ?
Graham
Posted by Trygve Lillefosse on July 27, 2008, 8:20 pm
wrote:
>> Neon John wrote:
>>
>>>> 2) The world's largest military aggessor.
>>>
>>> Not even close. Tally up where the US is actively conducting armed
>>> meddling
>>> (Iraq and Afghanistan) and then compare it to say, China (Burma, Tibet,
>>> Viet
>>> Nam are a few off the top of my head.) and then tell me again how the US
>>> is
>>> the world's largest aggressor.
>>
>> The US military budge is larger than the rest of the world combined.
> No. It isn't. US defense spending is roughly 45% of the world total. But
>even that figure is misleading. Other countries, notably Russia and China,
>call Nuclear, missile, and fighter weapons expenditures "Scientific
>expenses", military training as "Educational spending", and veteran pensions
>as "Welfare spending".
>> The war in Iraq will cost close to 800 Billion dollars when it is over.
> How much random destruction will those 800 Billion have prevented?
>Containing and concentrating the "fundamentalist Muslim terrorist
>organizations" to Iraq and Afghanistan has kept a hell of a lot of big ass
AFAIK:
Those organizations are founded from Saudi Arabia and operates from
Afghanistan.
Iraq was a secular state, with some rebel groups in the north. Those
rebel groups probarbly had connections to Afghanistan, but were
actively fought by the goverment.
--
SEE YA !!!
Trygve Lillefosse
AKA - Malawi, The Fisher King
Posted by Kris Krieger on July 27, 2008, 10:51 pm
> wrote:
>
>>> Neon John wrote:
>>>
>>>>> 2) The world's largest military aggessor.
>>>>
>>>> Not even close. Tally up where the US is actively conducting armed
>>>> meddling
>>>> (Iraq and Afghanistan) and then compare it to say, China (Burma,
>>>> Tibet, Viet
>>>> Nam are a few off the top of my head.) and then tell me again how
>>>> the US is
>>>> the world's largest aggressor.
>>>
>>> The US military budge is larger than the rest of the world combined.
>>
>> No. It isn't. US defense spending is roughly 45% of the world total.
>> But
>>even that figure is misleading. Other countries, notably Russia and
>>China, call Nuclear, missile, and fighter weapons expenditures
>>"Scientific expenses", military training as "Educational spending",
>>and veteran pensions as "Welfare spending".
>>
>>> The war in Iraq will cost close to 800 Billion dollars when it is
>>> over.
>>
>> How much random destruction will those 800 Billion have prevented?
>>Containing and concentrating the "fundamentalist Muslim terrorist
>>organizations" to Iraq and Afghanistan has kept a hell of a lot of big
>>ass
>
> AFAIK:
> Those organizations are founded from Saudi Arabia and operates from
> Afghanistan.
AFAIK, you're right. There was no evidence of eith er WMDs, or Al
Quaida, in Iraq, until after we'd gone went in - after Saddam was
toppled, a power-vacuum was cerated and, due to poor planning, we simply
did not have enough of a presence there to control the situation.
>
> Iraq was a secular state, with some rebel groups in the north. Those
> rebel groups probarbly had connections to Afghanistan, but were
> actively fought by the goverment.
>
Saddam didn't cotton to anyone who didn't swear fealty to him and him
alone. He'd struck me as being very much like Stalin, and for that and
other reasons, I was in agreement with the UN inspectors. Whjich, of
course, got me called "a traitor" (by people who, unlike myself, had
never taken an oath to "protect the Constitution from all enemies,
foreign and domestic...")
Posted by Eeyore on July 28, 2008, 12:07 pm
Trygve Lillefosse wrote:
> >
> >> The war in Iraq will cost close to 800 Billion dollars when it is over.
> >
> > How much random destruction will those 800 Billion have prevented?
> >Containing and concentrating the "fundamentalist Muslim terrorist
> >organizations" to Iraq and Afghanistan has kept a hell of a lot of big ass
> AFAIK:
> Those organizations are founded from Saudi Arabia and operates from
> Afghanistan.
> Iraq was a secular state, with some rebel groups in the north. Those
> rebel groups probarbly had connections to Afghanistan, but were
> actively fought by the goverment.
Those in the North are the Kurds, fighting for an independent Kurdistan. They
also have an argument with Turkey over borders. It was some of them who were
notoriously gassed by Saddam's forces.
Graham
Posted by Bob F on July 30, 2008, 5:23 pm
>> The war in Iraq will cost close to 800 Billion dollars when it is over.
> How much random destruction will those 800 Billion have prevented? Containing
> and concentrating the "fundamentalist Muslim terrorist organizations" to Iraq
> and Afghanistan has kept a hell of a lot of big ass bombs from going off in
> Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Americas. How much did the bombing in Spain
> cost? Britain? Bali ? How much did the Muslim uprising in France cost? The USA
> has anti terrorist military units operating all over the world trying to keep
> those things from happening again.
Considering that there was virtually no "al queda" in Iraq before we invaded, I
would suggest that we have "contained" nothing. What we have done is everything
Osama wanted. We've moved our bases out of Saudi arabia. We've seen the price of
oil tripple. We've given 10s of thousands of people reasons to hate and mistrust
the U.S., and a perfect training ground for Osama's efforts. That training is
now reflected in the change of tactics in Afganistan (You know - where Al Queda
origionated) where attacks are increasing. Al Queda is stronger than ever. The
U.S. is hated around the world. U.S. citizens are far less safe anywhere else in
the world than they were pre-bush. Iraq had nothing of significance to do with
terrorism. But it does now.
> > I concur largely with your broad objectives but have they really been good
> > value for money compared say to good intelligence for example
> <snip>
> I don't know. History will judge that one.