Posted by Just Wondering on September 28, 2021, 1:16 am
On 9/27/2021 4:31 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 8:11 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>
>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>
>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>> figure
>>
>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>
>> -----------------------
>>
>> "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your
>> only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to
>> postpone the use of that electricity.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
>>
>>
> Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
> system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
> megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.
Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.
Posted by Dechucka on September 28, 2021, 3:01 am
On 28/09/2021 11:16 am, Just Wondering wrote:
> On 9/27/2021 4:31 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>> On 28/09/2021 8:11 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> "Just Wondering" wrote in message
>>>
>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>
>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>>> figure
>>>
>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>>
>>> -----------------------
>>>
>>> "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your
>>> only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to
>>> postpone the use of that electricity.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
>>>
>>>
>> Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
>> system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
>> megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.
>
> Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.
Solar energy is a chemical reaction, hey you can claim I'm using nuclear
power. If it makes you happy to believe that renewable energy can't keep
going when the sun doesn't and the wind doesn't blow because chemical
storage is used so be it.
>
Posted by Just Wondering on September 28, 2021, 6:48 am
On 9/27/2021 9:01 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 11:16 am, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 4:31 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>> On 28/09/2021 8:11 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>> "Just Wondering" wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>>>> figure
>>>>
>>>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>>>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------
>>>>
>>>> "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is
>>>> your only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to
>>>> postpone the use of that electricity.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
>>> system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
>>> megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.
>>
>> Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.
>
> Solar energy is a chemical reaction, hey you can claim I'm using nuclear
> power.
Solar power comes from nuclear fusion, not a chemical reaction.
> If it makes you happy to believe that renewable energy can't
> keep going when the sun doesn't and the wind doesn't blow
> because chemical storage is used so be it.
It's not my "belief", I am describing the science of what
is solar energy.
https://justenergy.com/blog/what-is-solar-energy/ Notice where
it says, "Disadvantages of Solar Energy It Won’t Work at Night."
Posted by Jim Wilkins on September 28, 2021, 12:55 pm
On 9/27/2021 4:31 PM, Dechucka wrote:
> Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
> system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000 megawatts
> of battery storage to put into the grid.
Then you don't understand the formal logic of scientific modeling. The Black
Box can include internal storage of inputs.
> Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.
That's irrelevant if the source of that energy is solar.
You can call it whatever you please, but these systems are really defined by
the scientists and engineers who design and build them.
Solar panels without either storage or a sink like the grid to receive the
energy are nearly useless, because almost all real-world loads are so
variable.
I've been experimenting with immediate use of solar power in a freezer with
a DC compressor. In the middle of the day solar panel output is enough to
operate the compressor, and the Watt meter on the input to the attached AC
power supply reads zero.
When the compressor is off the solar current diverts to float charging the
freezer's backup battery and topping off other spares. Yesterday I checked
the battery electrolyte and confirmed that the float voltage is enough to
maintain a full charge but below the gassing level. This is how a UPS or
exit light maintains its lead-acid battery, with the disadvantage that after
an outage a full recharge at the float voltage can take a day or more, as
indicated by the trickle charging current.
When solar current isn't enough the compressor draws the rest from the AC
supply, shown by the power division on their Watt meters, or if the grid
fails it draws from the battery.
This meter keeps track of energy into and out of the battery:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32785159924.html
and this one monitors power drawn from the the AC line:
https://www.aliexpress.com/cheap/cheap-pzem-061.html
This PZEM-031 reads DC solar power but it doesn't like the low voltages at
dawn and dusk so I added a relay that protects it from seeing less than 10V:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32413784036.html
That's as close as I get to using all available solar power as it is
produced.
The other application for immediate use of solar power is heating water, but
I keep my low voltage solar circuits as isolated from the grid as possible
for safety. Otherwise it's just a theoretical exercise, not a practical home
power system.
You can't intelligently discuss energy without an understanding of
thermodynamics and energy quality, which concerns how easily it can be
transformed between forms such as the heat of a fire vs electricity or shaft
rotation. Unfortunately the non-technical general public doesn't seem to
appreciate the distinction between a primary source of energy like sunlight
and the secondary means of storing and distributing it, like hydrogen or
electricity.
https://stem.guide/topic/primary-resources-and-secondary-energy/
"Totally Solar" refers to the primary source. Secondary conversions don't
matter.
jsw
Posted by Just Wondering on September 28, 2021, 8:45 pm
On 9/28/2021 6:55 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>
> On 9/27/2021 4:31 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>> Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
>> system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
>> megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.
>
> Then you don't understand the formal logic of scientific modeling. The
> Black Box can include internal storage of inputs.
>
>> Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.
>
> That's irrelevant if the source of that energy is solar.
>
> You can call it whatever you please, but these systems are really
> defined by the scientists and engineers who design and build them.
>
> Solar panels without either storage or a sink like the grid to receive
> the energy are nearly useless, because almost all real-world loads are
> so variable.
>
> I've been experimenting with immediate use of solar power in a freezer
> with a DC compressor. In the middle of the day solar panel output is
> enough to operate the compressor, and the Watt meter on the input to the
> attached AC power supply reads zero.
>
> When the compressor is off the solar current diverts to float charging
> the freezer's backup battery and topping off other spares. Yesterday I
> checked the battery electrolyte and confirmed that the float voltage is
> enough to maintain a full charge but below the gassing level. This is
> how a UPS or exit light maintains its lead-acid battery, with the
> disadvantage that after an outage a full recharge at the float voltage
> can take a day or more, as indicated by the trickle charging current.
>
> When solar current isn't enough the compressor draws the rest from the
> AC supply, shown by the power division on their Watt meters, or if the
> grid fails it draws from the battery.
>
> This meter keeps track of energy into and out of the battery:
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32785159924.html
> and this one monitors power drawn from the the AC line:
> https://www.aliexpress.com/cheap/cheap-pzem-061.html
> This PZEM-031 reads DC solar power but it doesn't like the low voltages
> at dawn and dusk so I added a relay that protects it from seeing less
> than 10V:
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32413784036.html
>
> That's as close as I get to using all available solar power as it is
> produced.
>
> The other application for immediate use of solar power is heating water,
> but I keep my low voltage solar circuits as isolated from the grid as
> possible for safety. Otherwise it's just a theoretical exercise, not a
> practical home power system.
>
> You can't intelligently discuss energy without an understanding of
> thermodynamics and energy quality, which concerns how easily it can be
> transformed between forms such as the heat of a fire vs electricity or
> shaft rotation. Unfortunately the non-technical general public doesn't
> seem to appreciate the distinction between a primary source of energy
> like sunlight and the secondary means of storing and distributing it,
> like hydrogen or electricity.
> https://stem.guide/topic/primary-resources-and-secondary-energy/
>
> "Totally Solar" refers to the primary source. Secondary conversions
> don't matter.
If that's your position, then ALL energy on the planet is solar
power. Wind turbines? Secondary conversion of solar energy.
Hydroelectric generators? Secondary conversion of solar energy.
The same is true with combustion of fuel - ANY fuel. The same
for tidal energy, using oxen to plow a field, slaves to pick
cotton, even nuclear fission plants. All are secondary conversions
of energy where solar energy is the primary source.
>>
>> On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
>>> On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
>>>> When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!
>>>
>>> Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
>>> figure
>>
>> We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
>> power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.
>>
>> -----------------------
>>
>> "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your
>> only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to
>> postpone the use of that electricity.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
>>
>>
> Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
> system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
> megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.