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Posted by Scout on September 28, 2021, 1:53 pm
 



Average consumption 30 kilowatthours (kWh).

Figure 16 hours of storage as a bare minimum

100Ahr battery = 600 wh

Minimum required 40 batteries.

Cost about $000 just for the batteries.

Another $4,000 for the solar system

Figure about $5,000 for installation.

More for the lost floor space, or building to hold all this.

And that only gets you through the day. If you don't have 8 hours of full  
charge... overcast, raining, snow, etc then your battery capacity  
requirements will go up drastically,.

Then we need to calculate the pollution produced for all that hardware, the  
regular replacement of the batteries, panels and systems over a lifetime and  
then figure out if you're actually cutting emissions... or just spreading it  
around.

Seems to me to be a lot of money and issues for a dubious reduction in  
pollution.




  


Posted by Jim Wilkins on September 28, 2021, 6:01 pm
 

Average consumption 30 kilowatthours (kWh).

Figure 16 hours of storage as a bare minimum

100Ahr battery = 600 wh

Minimum required 40 batteries.

Cost about $000 just for the batteries.

Another $4,000 for the solar system

Figure about $5,000 for installation.

More for the lost floor space, or building to hold all this.

And that only gets you through the day. If you don't have 8 hours of full
charge... overcast, raining, snow, etc then your battery capacity
requirements will go up drastically,.

Then we need to calculate the pollution produced for all that hardware, the
regular replacement of the batteries, panels and systems over a lifetime and
then figure out if you're actually cutting emissions... or just spreading it
around.

Seems to me to be a lot of money and issues for a dubious reduction in
pollution.

--------------------------

My backup system isn't nearly that large or expensive, and my normal  
consumption is under 5KWH per day.

The backup supports a compact refrigerator and small freezer plus one or two  
laptops for cellular Internet and antenna television. For meals I run a 2KW  
inverter generator, or use the wood stove since most long outages here are  
from winter ice storms. Laundry requires a 3KW generator and kick-starting  
by releasing the old Maytag's belt tension with my foot on the motor. I  
freeze-dry the laundry on an outdoor clothes line, typically within the same  
day since winter humidity is very low.

Two fairly new 12V 105Ah marine batteries will run the inverter for at least  
24 hours and maybe 48 depending on conditions. The freezer operates on 12V  
DC and can go almost 48 hours on the original pair of ~10 year old  
batteries, by recent test. The four marine batteries and four 100W panels  
averaged $00 apiece and the sine inverter was free, a "dead" high end APC  
UPS. Installation is standing the panels on fold-out legs in the yard or  
driveway when I need them for an outage, otherwise a row of small flea  
market panels on the roof powers the freezer. After measuring power loss I  
upgraded the house solar wire to 10 AWG, a significant expense if you buy it  
new.

As best I can figure, the cost of battery depreciation if cycled daily  
somewhat exceeds the cost of grid power, so I use the system only for backup  
to prolong battery life. I ran the numbers for flooded, AGM and Lithium and  
flooded won IF maintained, but not if neglected. I pay $.18688 per grid KWH  
and these $00 batteries would cost $.20 per KWH if they delivered 1 KWH  
each, 500 times. They probably wouldn't last that long, 500 cycles is  
pushing the claimed performance of AGMs at twice the price and reportedly  
half the storage life, so the high end estimate for battery cost ran around  
$.50/KWH, close to using a generator. I get nearly 10 years in storage from  
used PowerSonic 12V 18A AGMs if they are topped up regularly, less than 3  
years from Rhinos. They are considered dead and recycled when they won't run  
the freezer the equivalent of overnight.

If I switched to daily cycling I would buy different batteries because the  
flooded ones may gas if charged fast enough, meaning high enough voltage, to  
fully recover from a deep discharge during winter daylight. They don't gas  
if limited to the float voltage, but they also don't fully recharge in a  
day. They do charge to 70~80% before reaching the gassing voltage, which is  
enough for me.

Unless more trees die and fall I don't get enough sun on the roof to justify  
a larger permanent installation. What I have has let me unplug from the grid  
and keep operating as usual when thunderstorms threaten, and stay off it if  
they last overnight. I've only needed the generator briefly a few times  
during an extended winter blackout. In clear weather 400W (~330W into the  
batteries) of solar power recharged the batteries into the acceptance  
(declining current) range by 10AM.

-jsw  


Posted by Scout on September 28, 2021, 8:46 pm
 


Ok, so first off we're going to have to eliminate a lot of stuff that's now  
required for modern homes.




<yawn> do you really expect people to make this change?

Could you imagine a modern city with virtually everyone using wood for  
heating in the winter?

Talk about pollution.

Meanwhile, it seems clear that if the sun doesn't come out.... your  
semi-modern lifestyle comes to an end... or you fire up that extremely  
polluting fossil fuel generator to help you over the hump.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing the workable solution that will be accepted by  
people who want nothing less than 3000 square foot homes and push button  
connivance for everything.

I grew up in a home heated exclusively by wood, and let me tell you there  
were some COLD mornings, and getting up in the middle of the night,  
nevermind all the work over the summer putting up enough wood, which again  
city dwellers wouldn't have.

So, while you have a 'solution' that works for you because you're willing to  
cut a lot of corners, and do the extra work, I'm still not sure if I'm  
seeing an overall improvement in the amount of pollution being produced, and  
certainly not something that I see 330 Million Americans who will be be  
willing to do that and live like that.
  


Posted by Jim Wilkins on September 28, 2021, 9:16 pm
 


...

<yawn> do you really expect people to make this change?

--------------------

Not at all, but I hope they understand the personal consequences of what  
they demand of others


Posted by Scout on September 29, 2021, 12:47 pm
 


What personal consequences?

Do what they want to do, how they want to do it?

Yea, that's gotta be a bummer
  


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