Posted by markzoom on February 25, 2007, 2:32 pm
On 25 Feb, 04:27, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
> On 24 Feb 2007 12:15:16 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
> >> On 23 Feb 2007 16:34:24 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
> >> >BTW.: I also suspect any standard heatpump compressor can be used at
> >> >variable speeds if the restrictor orifice is pressure regulated. A
> >> >sprung needle valve might do that job.
> >> This is really kinda funny.
> >Glad you're having fun.
> >> You lack the refrigeration knowledge to
> >> realize that the device you describe is the common thermostatic
> >> expansion valve (TXV)
> >That's why I asked for "experts" to comment.
> >> and yet you argue against the sound advice given
> >> by many of us who DO know HVAC.
> >I weigh up the comments made.
> >The bottom line is that a wind generator driven heat pump WILL give
> >more heat output than an electrically driven one, with the added bonus
> >of providing refrigeration and needing FAR FEWER COMPONENTS than an
> >expensive electricity generating turbine driving an expensive electric
> >air conditioning unit.
> It may do, but at what cost.
> I just recently bought a 1HP reverse cycle AC to heat and cool my
> study.
> It cost me $450.
You forgot to add the electricity bills for the life of your unit.
> Will your wind driven system with its turbine , mast to hold the
> turbine , installation costs of the tower and foundations plus all the
> pipes and air exchangers cost $450 or less.
> Somehow I dont think so.
> People get far to obsessed with efficiency and lose sight of reality.
You lost sight of your electricity bill.
Posted by gfretwell on February 25, 2007, 7:04 pm
On 25 Feb 2007 11:32:13 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
>On 25 Feb, 04:27, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
>> On 24 Feb 2007 12:15:16 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >> On 23 Feb 2007 16:34:24 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>>
>> >> >BTW.: I also suspect any standard heatpump compressor can be used at
>> >> >variable speeds if the restrictor orifice is pressure regulated. A
>> >> >sprung needle valve might do that job.
>>
>> >> This is really kinda funny.
>>
>> >Glad you're having fun.
>>
>> >> You lack the refrigeration knowledge to
>> >> realize that the device you describe is the common thermostatic
>> >> expansion valve (TXV)
>>
>> >That's why I asked for "experts" to comment.
>>
>> >> and yet you argue against the sound advice given
>> >> by many of us who DO know HVAC.
>>
>> >I weigh up the comments made.
>> >The bottom line is that a wind generator driven heat pump WILL give
>> >more heat output than an electrically driven one, with the added bonus
>> >of providing refrigeration and needing FAR FEWER COMPONENTS than an
>> >expensive electricity generating turbine driving an expensive electric
>> >air conditioning unit.
>>
>> It may do, but at what cost.
>> I just recently bought a 1HP reverse cycle AC to heat and cool my
>> study.
>> It cost me $450.
>You forgot to add the electricity bills for the life of your unit.
>> Will your wind driven system with its turbine , mast to hold the
>> turbine , installation costs of the tower and foundations plus all the
>> pipes and air exchangers cost $450 or less.
>> Somehow I dont think so.
>> People get far to obsessed with efficiency and lose sight of reality.
>You lost sight of your electricity bill.
I think his point is you can get "free" energy from the environmernt
but, by the time you amortize your capital expense and maintain the
system it will be the most expensive way to heat/cool your home. That
is why I suggested using junk car parts or other "damn near free"
stuff for your expiriments, to prove the concept and have some fun
without breaking the bank.
It will never be cost effective, the only question is how much do you
want to spend to prove that. Actually if you can make a somewhat
effective system for a few hundred bucks you might actually cool/heat
a small space for (almost) free.
Posted by markzoom on February 25, 2007, 7:27 pm
On 26 Feb, 02:04, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> On 25 Feb 2007 11:32:13 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
> >On 25 Feb, 04:27, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
> >> On 24 Feb 2007 12:15:16 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
> >> >> On 23 Feb 2007 16:34:24 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
> >> >> >BTW.: I also suspect any standard heatpump compressor can be used at
> >> >> >variable speeds if the restrictor orifice is pressure regulated. A
> >> >> >sprung needle valve might do that job.
> >> >> This is really kinda funny.
> >> >Glad you're having fun.
> >> >> You lack the refrigeration knowledge to
> >> >> realize that the device you describe is the common thermostatic
> >> >> expansion valve (TXV)
> >> >That's why I asked for "experts" to comment.
> >> >> and yet you argue against the sound advice given
> >> >> by many of us who DO know HVAC.
> >> >I weigh up the comments made.
> >> >The bottom line is that a wind generator driven heat pump WILL give
> >> >more heat output than an electrically driven one, with the added bonus
> >> >of providing refrigeration and needing FAR FEWER COMPONENTS than an
> >> >expensive electricity generating turbine driving an expensive electric
> >> >air conditioning unit.
> >> It may do, but at what cost.
> >> I just recently bought a 1HP reverse cycle AC to heat and cool my
> >> study.
> >> It cost me $450.
> >You forgot to add the electricity bills for the life of your unit.
> >> Will your wind driven system with its turbine , mast to hold the
> >> turbine , installation costs of the tower and foundations plus all the
> >> pipes and air exchangers cost $450 or less.
> >> Somehow I dont think so.
> >> People get far to obsessed with efficiency and lose sight of reality.
> >You lost sight of your electricity bill.
> I think his point is you can get "free" energy from the environmernt
> but, by the time you amortize your capital expense and maintain the
> system it will be the most expensive way to heat/cool your home. That
> is why I suggested using junk car parts or other "damn near free"
> stuff for your expiriments, to prove the concept and have some fun
> without breaking the bank.
Most western manufactured green energy stuff is too expensive, yes.
But if you check out some chinese manufacturers you'll get a pleasant
surprise.
> It will never be cost effective, the only question is how much do you
> want to spend to prove that. Actually if you can make a somewhat
> effective system for a few hundred bucks you might actually cool/heat
> a small space for (almost) free.
That's my plan. Roof windows (with blinds for summer) are one
effective way but I need
something that works on winter nights and cloudy days here to heat
both water and house. I need about 3 kw of heat in total. Much of it
can come from solar.
Posted by Mauried on February 25, 2007, 7:34 pm
On 25 Feb 2007 11:32:13 -0800, markzoom@digiverse.net wrote:
>On 25 Feb, 04:27, maur...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
>> On 24 Feb 2007 12:15:16 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >> On 23 Feb 2007 16:34:24 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
>>
>> >> >BTW.: I also suspect any standard heatpump compressor can be used at
>> >> >variable speeds if the restrictor orifice is pressure regulated. A
>> >> >sprung needle valve might do that job.
>>
>> >> This is really kinda funny.
>>
>> >Glad you're having fun.
>>
>> >> You lack the refrigeration knowledge to
>> >> realize that the device you describe is the common thermostatic
>> >> expansion valve (TXV)
>>
>> >That's why I asked for "experts" to comment.
>>
>> >> and yet you argue against the sound advice given
>> >> by many of us who DO know HVAC.
>>
>> >I weigh up the comments made.
>> >The bottom line is that a wind generator driven heat pump WILL give
>> >more heat output than an electrically driven one, with the added bonus
>> >of providing refrigeration and needing FAR FEWER COMPONENTS than an
>> >expensive electricity generating turbine driving an expensive electric
>> >air conditioning unit.
>>
>> It may do, but at what cost.
>> I just recently bought a 1HP reverse cycle AC to heat and cool my
>> study.
>> It cost me $450.
>You forgot to add the electricity bills for the life of your unit.
>> Will your wind driven system with its turbine , mast to hold the
>> turbine , installation costs of the tower and foundations plus all the
>> pipes and air exchangers cost $450 or less.
>> Somehow I dont think so.
>> People get far to obsessed with efficiency and lose sight of reality.
>You lost sight of your electricity bill.
No, Im not.
You have to look at the current and the future value of money.
Money that isnt spent today on large capital items like wind turbines
or solar cells can be invested which will produce dividends that will
pay your power bills forever more.
I looked at the option of wind power and useing a small example of
a 1KW wind turbine , installed cost UK 3000 pounds, that around $10K
AUD.
http://www.micropower.co.uk/about/turbines.html
I chose instead to not go down that road aand invested $10K at 8%
which gives me a dividend of $800 PA which pays my entire power bill.
Not just the power bill for my small air conditioner.
A lot of people think that power or energy thats made from renewable
sources is somehow free as they dont have to pay power bills, but they
ignore the fact that the same capital invested will in most cases more
than cover all the bills you will incurr.
.
Posted by Joe Fischer on February 25, 2007, 7:53 pm
On Mon, mauried@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:
>http://www.micropower.co.uk/about/turbines.html
>I chose instead to not go down that road aand invested $10K at 8%
>which gives me a dividend of $800 PA which pays my entire power bill.
>Not just the power bill for my small air conditioner.
>A lot of people think that power or energy thats made from renewable
>sources is somehow free as they dont have to pay power bills, but they
>ignore the fact that the same capital invested will in most cases more
>than cover all the bills you will incurr.
A lot of people don't have $10K, but they may have
good credit and can buy energy saving equipment.
Many if not most decisions are based on ability
to pay cash, or on available credit, and even with bad
credit it might be possible to buy an old gas guzzler car.
Joe Fischer
> >> On 23 Feb 2007 16:34:24 -0800, markz...@digiverse.net wrote:
> >> >BTW.: I also suspect any standard heatpump compressor can be used at
> >> >variable speeds if the restrictor orifice is pressure regulated. A
> >> >sprung needle valve might do that job.
> >> This is really kinda funny.
> >Glad you're having fun.
> >> You lack the refrigeration knowledge to
> >> realize that the device you describe is the common thermostatic
> >> expansion valve (TXV)
> >That's why I asked for "experts" to comment.
> >> and yet you argue against the sound advice given
> >> by many of us who DO know HVAC.
> >I weigh up the comments made.
> >The bottom line is that a wind generator driven heat pump WILL give
> >more heat output than an electrically driven one, with the added bonus
> >of providing refrigeration and needing FAR FEWER COMPONENTS than an
> >expensive electricity generating turbine driving an expensive electric
> >air conditioning unit.
> It may do, but at what cost.
> I just recently bought a 1HP reverse cycle AC to heat and cool my
> study.
> It cost me $450.