Neon John wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:59:44 -0700, Anthony Matonak
>
>> Neon John wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> This thread has my curiosity aroused. I wonder if there is anyone in this
>>> thread other than me who actually owns an EV?
>>>
>> I have wanted to buy an electric car (*) for the past 20 years but
>> they haven't been available for sale. If no one makes them then I
>> can't buy one.
>>
> Doesn't seem like you've wanted to buy one very much or you'd own one now. You
> could have bought a Chrysler TEvan or a Toyota RAV4 when they were offered for
> sale. Or you could have leased an EV1. You can still buy RAV4s used. One
> just went on Ebay last week - for about $70,000. TEvans also come up for sale
> fairly often. To refresh your memory, these are full size vans that Chrysler
> built from the ground up as electrics.
> Or you could have, then as now, gone to a professional converter and had the
> car of your choice converted to electric with the same quality as the major
> OEMs. Here's one whose work I'm familiar with
> http://www.evdrive.com/index.html
> Or you can buy one already converted.
>
>> * Golf carts are not electric cars. Cars must be able to drive the
>> freeways, seat at least two people and go more than 75 miles.
>>
> No they don't. That's simply your personal spec. My electric car needs to
> seat one person, go 60 miles and keep up with surface street traffic. My
> "golf cart", as you call it, (which is a fully licensed vehicle and not an
> NEV) does that quite nicely. 99.99% of my driving is done in my local area.
> Truth be known, over half of those trips are done on my hotrod electric
> scooter. About once a month I hit the interstate to buy groceries and
> supplies and for that my gas car does just fine and the cost is tolerable.
> In return for not requiring my EV to be a do-everything Swiss army knife, I
> was able to get it up and running for under $5,000. It saved me more than
> that in gasoline, probably in the first year, even before the price rise of
> the last little while.
> The vehicle that I'm working on now will go a little farther and a little
> faster but will be just as inexpensive to build and operate.
> If you failed to get the technical education and experience necessary to build
> yourself an EV then you'll get to pay someone else to do it. If you have
> unrealistic expectations of what your EV must do then you'll pay even more.
> These silly range expectations writ large are what is driving the price of the
> GM Volt into the stratosphere.
> Errand running and other local commuting is where an EV excels - as the second
> family vehicle, backing up the conventional cars. That way conventional cars
> get used only when necessary - for long trips, towing things, carrying heavy
> loads and many people. That second car isn't very practical if it costs as
> much as the primary vehicle. That's what your silly range and speed
> expectations are producing. A $60,000 run-about isn't really practical, after
> all.
> There is a sweet spot in the range and speed vs cost map right now that
> occupies a range of 50 to 80 miles and a speed of 60-65 mph. That spot is set
> primarily by battery technology. It's moving upward but very slowly.
> Meanwhile, most trips that most people make can be satisfied with existing
> vehicle capabilities.
> So anyway, I do have to ask. Why are you posting here like you actually know
> something about EVs when you have no experience at all?
> John
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> There is room for all of God's creatures.... Right next to the mashed potatoes.
>
Very well put John, thank you. It's the mind set "I want a range of 300
miles and top speed of 100mph" I find
troubling, these people are going to be in for a rude awakening very
shortly. their next vehicle might very well
be the bus or train if they want those capabilities ;~)
Neon John wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:59:44 -0700, Anthony Matonak wrote:
>> Neon John wrote:
>> ...
>>> This thread has my curiosity aroused. I wonder if there is anyone in this
>>> thread other than me who actually owns an EV?
...
>> I have wanted to buy an electric car (*) for the past 20 years but
>> they haven't been available for sale.
>
> Doesn't seem like you've wanted to buy one very much or you'd own one now. You
> could have bought a Chrysler TEvan or a Toyota RAV4 when they were offered for
> sale. Or you could have leased an EV1. You can still buy RAV4s used. One
> just went on Ebay last week - for about $70,000. TEvans also come up for sale
> fairly often. To refresh your memory, these are full size vans that Chrysler
> built from the ground up as electrics.
You are correct. I haven't wanted an electric car bad enough to break
the bank paying for it. Go figure.
As I understand it, there were only 328 Rav4s and 56 TEvans ever made
so they were never commonly available. I could never lease the EV1s
because I didn't live close enough to the service center and, since they
were never offered for sale, I could not have purchased one.
I don't have any exact number but I suspect there aren't more than
a thousand freeway legal electric vehicles in existence in the entire
world. Compared to the half million, or more, vehicles produced every
year for any popular model of fossil fuel vehicle, these EVs are
practically non-existent. The are so rare that they only show up in
museums and car collections and not auto lots.
> Or you could have, then as now, gone to a professional converter and had the
> car of your choice converted to electric with the same quality as the major
> OEMs. Here's one whose work I'm familiar with
>
> http://www.evdrive.com/index.html
Perhaps I didn't look closely enough, but I didn't see what it cost.
Yes, I could spend any amount of money to have something built. This
is one of those things that rich people do as a hobby, they buy things
that aren't for sale and have built things that aren't being made.
>> * Golf carts are not electric cars. Cars must be able to drive the
>> freeways, seat at least two people and go more than 75 miles.
>
> No they don't. That's simply your personal spec.
Yes, this is my personal spec for my personal car. I don't think it's
all that much to ask that my transportation vehicle meet my needs and
I don't see those requirements as all that unrealistic. Certainly I
don't see it as unrealistic that a car should be legal to drive.
> If you failed to get the technical education and experience necessary to build
> yourself an EV then you'll get to pay someone else to do it. If you have
> unrealistic expectations of what your EV must do then you'll pay even more.
I don't want to spend my life building and maintaining my car any more
than I want to spend my life paying for one. This is my own personal
quirk, clearly.
> So anyway, I do have to ask. Why are you posting here like you actually know
> something about EVs when you have no experience at all?
I post, like everyone else, for my own reasons and I've never claimed to
be an expert in the field.
Anthony
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 12:06:53 -0700, Anthony Matonak
>Neon John wrote:
>> Doesn't seem like you've wanted to buy one very much or you'd own one now. You
>> could have bought a Chrysler TEvan or a Toyota RAV4 when they were offered for
>> sale. Or you could have leased an EV1. You can still buy RAV4s used. One
>> just went on Ebay last week - for about $70,000. TEvans also come up for sale
>> fairly often. To refresh your memory, these are full size vans that Chrysler
>> built from the ground up as electrics.
>You are correct. I haven't wanted an electric car bad enough to break
>the bank paying for it. Go figure.
There are many resources to help you get an EV without breaking the bank. Such
as
http://evtransportal.com/
http://www.evfinder.com/
http://www.texomaev.com/
I have probably 300 bookmarks in my EV folder. I'll be happy to send them to
you if it'll help in your quest for an electric car.
>As I understand it, there were only 328 Rav4s and 56 TEvans ever made
>so they were never commonly available. I could never lease the EV1s
>because I didn't live close enough to the service center and, since they
>were never offered for sale, I could not have purchased one.
The 328 was the number offered at retail through certain Toyota dealers. That
doesn't include government and fleet sales. About 2000 total, I believe, but
don't hold me to that. IN that magnitude though. Many of those have ended up
on the used car market.
I don't know the number of TEvans but it was significantly more than that. Ga
Power had over 20. Our SAE chapter visited the Ga Power fleet garage shortly
after they received theirs. I marveled at all the identical vans lined up at
chargers. TVA had 10 at the Chattanooga Power Service Center alone. Probably
that many at HQ in Knoxville. California got a bunch of 'em.
Whatever the production number, there were enough that one is almost always
for sale on the EVFinder list.
Re: EV1. There are a number of folks on the EV mailing list wanted one badly
enough to qualify through non-standard means. That usually involved using the
address of a friend or relative that lived in the qualifying area.
>I don't have any exact number but I suspect there aren't more than
>a thousand freeway legal electric vehicles in existence in the entire
>world. Compared to the half million, or more, vehicles produced every
>year for any popular model of fossil fuel vehicle, these EVs are
>practically non-existent. The are so rare that they only show up in
>museums and car collections and not auto lots.
EAA quotes around 5000 active, running EVs. I wouldn't be surprised to find
that this estimate is quite low and doesn't include NEVs. The reason you
don't see them on used car lots is that the demand is such that for-sale ones
are invariably sold within hours of being offered on specialty sites like
EVFinder.com.
The problem is that the government's inflexible safety (sic) standards make it
almost impossible for a cottage manufacturer to get started while the demand
isn't great enough for the big guys to jump in with any vigor. As long as
people believe the car industry's BS about needing 14 air bombs and other such
rot to be "safe", the situation will remain that way.
Personally, I'd be perfectly happy with a car at the safety level of my 75
Datsun Z that let me walk away unscathed from a 60mph head-on with a drunk
driver. It had the basics - a good seat belt system, collapsible steering
column, crumple zones and safety glass. An EV like that might sell for no
more than $10k, even with fairly advanced batteries. And lacking the weight
penalty of all that safety crap, the range would be up there where we all want
it to be.
>> Or you could have, then as now, gone to a professional converter and had the
>> car of your choice converted to electric with the same quality as the major
>> OEMs. Here's one whose work I'm familiar with
>>
>> http://www.evdrive.com/index.html
>Perhaps I didn't look closely enough, but I didn't see what it cost.
>Yes, I could spend any amount of money to have something built. This
>is one of those things that rich people do as a hobby, they buy things
>that aren't for sale and have built things that aren't being made.
Aw Geez, anthony, now you're using that old "rich people" whine. An EV
conversion costs whatever you want it to cost. EVDrive is a high end shop
that builds cars with a gas-like driving experience. AC motor, lithium
batteries, advanced battery management, etc. You pay for all that, probably
$50k or more. OTOH, the cheapest turn-key conversion I've seen listed comes
in at about $9k. This gets you an economy car with a 50-55 mph top speed and
a 40-50 mile range. Between those extremes, you makes your choices and you
pays your money. Just like with gas cars.
>>> * Golf carts are not electric cars. Cars must be able to drive the
>>> freeways, seat at least two people and go more than 75 miles.
>>
>> No they don't. That's simply your personal spec.
>Yes, this is my personal spec for my personal car. I don't think it's
>all that much to ask that my transportation vehicle meet my needs and
>I don't see those requirements as all that unrealistic. Certainly I
>don't see it as unrealistic that a car should be legal to drive.
Anthony, don't be a dork. No one seriously advocates driving a non-licensed
car on public roads. Everything we've discussed is either legally licensed or
license-exempt (such as my scooter). My "golf cart" CitiCar is fully licensed
and is legal on any road in this country. Since it can run a bit over 55, it
can keep up with traffic in the slow lane, albeit not comfortably. That's a
mis-application of the vehicle, however. It is perfect for around-town
driving on streets with speed limits of 45 and below. Around here "45" really
means 55. Mine is a bottom dollar EV because that's all I require.
NEVs are also legally licensed cars, albeit restricted to certain roads. The
silly federal speed limiter is easily defeated with either a programming
change or the turn of a pot. After that, these little cars also easily keep
up with surface street traffic.
My range needs have changed now that I've retired and moved to this remote
mountain cabin so I'm building a new EV with more range. It'll cost a little
more but given that it's 40 miles round trip to the nearest store, it'll pay
for itself inside of a year at current fuel prices.
>> If you failed to get the technical education and experience necessary to build
>> yourself an EV then you'll get to pay someone else to do it. If you have
>> unrealistic expectations of what your EV must do then you'll pay even more.
>I don't want to spend my life building and maintaining my car any more
>than I want to spend my life paying for one. This is my own personal
>quirk, clearly.
Are you incapable of stating your thought without using wild exaggeration?
That's one of those last-resort techniques that falls just in front of
profanity. Spend your whole life indeed!
>> So anyway, I do have to ask. Why are you posting here like you actually know
>> something about EVs when you have no experience at all?
>I post, like everyone else, for my own reasons and I've never claimed to
>be an expert in the field.
Classic attention-seeking behavioral disorder. Whatever.
I've laid out a fairly clear and fairly easy path to EV ownership if you want
one. I suspect that you really don't and have simply found something to mouth
off about. If you ever do get serious about owning an EV, there are over 1500
members of the EV Discussion List (EVDL), most of whom are more than eager to
help newbies.
And with that I'm outta this thread.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
There is room for all of God's creatures.... Right next to the mashed potatoes.
XML site map
>
>> Neon John wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> This thread has my curiosity aroused. I wonder if there is anyone in this
>>> thread other than me who actually owns an EV?
>>>
>> I have wanted to buy an electric car (*) for the past 20 years but
>> they haven't been available for sale. If no one makes them then I
>> can't buy one.
>>
> Doesn't seem like you've wanted to buy one very much or you'd own one now. You
> could have bought a Chrysler TEvan or a Toyota RAV4 when they were offered for
> sale. Or you could have leased an EV1. You can still buy RAV4s used. One
> just went on Ebay last week - for about $70,000. TEvans also come up for sale
> fairly often. To refresh your memory, these are full size vans that Chrysler
> built from the ground up as electrics.
> Or you could have, then as now, gone to a professional converter and had the
> car of your choice converted to electric with the same quality as the major
> OEMs. Here's one whose work I'm familiar with
> http://www.evdrive.com/index.html
> Or you can buy one already converted.
>
>> * Golf carts are not electric cars. Cars must be able to drive the
>> freeways, seat at least two people and go more than 75 miles.
>>
> No they don't. That's simply your personal spec. My electric car needs to
> seat one person, go 60 miles and keep up with surface street traffic. My
> "golf cart", as you call it, (which is a fully licensed vehicle and not an
> NEV) does that quite nicely. 99.99% of my driving is done in my local area.
> Truth be known, over half of those trips are done on my hotrod electric
> scooter. About once a month I hit the interstate to buy groceries and
> supplies and for that my gas car does just fine and the cost is tolerable.
> In return for not requiring my EV to be a do-everything Swiss army knife, I
> was able to get it up and running for under $5,000. It saved me more than
> that in gasoline, probably in the first year, even before the price rise of
> the last little while.
> The vehicle that I'm working on now will go a little farther and a little
> faster but will be just as inexpensive to build and operate.
> If you failed to get the technical education and experience necessary to build
> yourself an EV then you'll get to pay someone else to do it. If you have
> unrealistic expectations of what your EV must do then you'll pay even more.
> These silly range expectations writ large are what is driving the price of the
> GM Volt into the stratosphere.
> Errand running and other local commuting is where an EV excels - as the second
> family vehicle, backing up the conventional cars. That way conventional cars
> get used only when necessary - for long trips, towing things, carrying heavy
> loads and many people. That second car isn't very practical if it costs as
> much as the primary vehicle. That's what your silly range and speed
> expectations are producing. A $60,000 run-about isn't really practical, after
> all.
> There is a sweet spot in the range and speed vs cost map right now that
> occupies a range of 50 to 80 miles and a speed of 60-65 mph. That spot is set
> primarily by battery technology. It's moving upward but very slowly.
> Meanwhile, most trips that most people make can be satisfied with existing
> vehicle capabilities.
> So anyway, I do have to ask. Why are you posting here like you actually know
> something about EVs when you have no experience at all?
> John
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> There is room for all of God's creatures.... Right next to the mashed potatoes.
>