Posted by mike on January 11, 2014, 6:50 pm
On 1/11/2014 8:47 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>
> My experiments suggest that the resistance that matters can be
> measured as voltage drop and recovery when the battery is nearly
> discharged. For example one that I tested recovered from 10V to ~11.5V
> after the inverter load shut itself off.
>
> A DC-AC inverter is a convenient test load because it has a low
> voltage shut off to protect the battery and you can adjust the power
> by plugging in 120V heaters, light bulbs, soldering irons etc. My
> crock pot draws 70W or 100W and doesn't get hot enough to accidentally
> burn me or wires that touch it.
> jsw
>
>
I was gonna stuff a square wave into the load fixture and
measure the battery voltage steps on a scope.
I've found that to be a decent measure of resistance.
Doesn't get obscured by all the other battery voltage effects.
Your suggestion is a good one because it more accurately represents
the behavior under specific conditions measured.
Posted by clare on January 11, 2014, 5:56 pm
>On 1/11/2014 3:48 AM, Johny B Good wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/10/2014 2:54 PM, Johny B Good wrote:
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jim Rojas wrote:
>>>>>> Nick Amato wrote:
>>>>>>> Honestly, its been probably about a year since it was set up this
>>>>>>> way.. and I think the person who had them before me had it wrong too
>>>>>>> then. So a total of around a year and a half like that. How would I
>>>>>>> know if I have permanent damage?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A 4 to 1 mixture of distilled or rain water & epson salt to help keep
>>>>>> your batteries in top condition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4 parts of distilled or rain water
>>>>>> 1 part epson salt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can make a quick batch using a microwave and a glass measuring
>>>>>> cup.
>>>>>> I like to make a half gallon at a time and keep it on hand at all
>>>>>> times.
>>>>>> 1. Bring the water to a slight boil.
>>>>>> 2. Add epson salt and stir until it is all dissolved. Never add epson
>>>>>> salt without first dissolving it. It will just sink to the bottom and
>>>>>> clump. 3. Allow mixture to cool.
>>>>>> 4. Add in each cell as needed. If possible, shake the battery to mix
>>>>>> it up good.
>>>>>> 5. Do not overfill your batteries. It will overflow and make a mess. a
>>>>>> 1/4 inch over the top of the plate is more than enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can also try this recipe with batteries that no longer hold a good
>>>>>> charge. Marine, Golf Cart, and Fork Lift batteries are best to use
>>>>>> because the plates are much thicker. Car batteries plates for the most
>>>>>> part are thin, and they disintegrate easily over time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can use car batteries if you do the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Completely drain the battery of all liquids.
>>>>>> 2. Add baking soda to the old battery acid to neutralize it, and safe
>>>>>> disposal.
>>>>>> 3. Rinse out the batteries a few times using rain water (free). Rinse
>>>>>> until the water comes out clear. DO NOT USE A WATER HOSE. You can use
>>>>>> compressed air and a plastic tube if you want to agitate the plates.
>>>>>> The impurities in in normal drinking water will destroy your battery.
>>>>>> 4. Make your 4 to 1 mixture, and allow it to cool.
>>>>>> 5. Pour it into each cell.
>>>>>> 6. Leave the fill caps loose.
>>>>>> 7. Charge your battery at no more than 2 amps for about 3 days.
>>>>>> 8. Take readings each day and write down the results.
>>>>>> 9. After the 3 days have passed, do a load test. You are not going to
>>>>>> get a full 100% of the rated CCA, but if you get 50-90 percent, then
>>>>>> you are good to go.
>>>>>
>>>>> You are replacing the battery acid with water and epson salts?? Does this really
>>>>> work? How?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes and no. However, mostly no. See this wiki article:
>>>>
>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_acid_battery> for the full
>>>> 'skinny'.
>>>>
>>>> In particular this section:
>>>>
>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_acid_battery#Additives>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> TBH, I'm surprised it was left to me, a mere lurker in this NG, to
>>>> point out the 'bleeding obvious' and provide those links.
>>>>
>>> This is a quote from your link:
>>> Since the 1950s chemical additives have been used to reduce lead sulfate
>>> build up on plates and improve battery condition when added to the
>>> electrolyte of a vented lead–acid battery.
>>> Such treatments are rarely, if ever, effective.
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>> So, can you be more specific about what is 'bleeding obvious'???
>>
>> I was just pointing out that the OP (originally posting as nick6052
>> then morphing straight into Nick Amoto) could have found answers if
>> he'd thought to do a search using the phrase "lead acid battery" to
>> lead him to the wikipedia and other articles on the subject of
>> 'reviving' lead acid batteries.
>>
>>>
>>> I like to keep an open mind.
>>> I've got a dead motorcycle battery.
>>> And it's gonna rain an inch tonite, so I'll put out a bucket.
>>> Sounds like an experiment brewing.
>>>
>>> I would like a clarification on:
>>>>>> 4 parts of distilled or rain water
>>>>>> 1 part epson salt
>>>
>>> That by volume?
>>
>> I can't answer that one since I never made any suggestions about
>> battery care other than to provide a link to the wikipedia page.
>>
>>>
>>> Wanna get it right so I don't screw up the experiment.
>>>
>>> I'll report back in 3 days if the motorcycle starts.
>>> Thanks,
>>
>> You could always try bump starting the bike (I've assumed it's one
>> not blessed with a 'Kickstart'). It's surprising how often this will
>> work in helping to revive a 'flat battery' but it does assume a
>> recently flattened battery rather than one that's been dead for over 6
>> months.
>>
>> The epsom salts trick can help, provided the only reason for the
>> failure is simple sulphation rather than any of the other failure
>> mechanisms that might apply. You won't restore it completely but it's
>> a solution that can usefully extend the service life on the basis of
>> "It's better to have half a loaf than none at all".
>I'm sure you can come up with circumstances where that's true.
>But if the motorcycle won't start, that ain't one of them.
>>
>I don't know who's who, but somebody posted a procedure with
>the implication that it would fix bad batteries.
>I think it's crap, but I do have an open mind and a battery I can
>use for verification...and it's raining too hard to do much outside.
>
>I pulled the battery out of the shed, topped it off with water.
>I'm charging it.
>I'll measure the resistance as the control.
>Replace the electrolyte.
>Charge it.
>Measure the resistance again.
>Only problem is finding the epsom salts...should be around here somewhere.
>
>But, let's back up.
>Can someone tell me that they've actually used the salts to replace
>the entire electrolyte and it recovered 50-90% of the capacity?
>I'm not gonna do what I estimate is a worthless experiment
>because someone's brother had a friend who read something about it
>somewhere...
>I want someone to tell me that they, personally did it and measured
>the results with real meters.
There is NO WAY UNDER THE SUN that using a mixture of magnesium
sulphate and water as a replacement for sulphuric acid as eletrolyte
in a lead acid battery will yeild an operational battery.
Posted by mike on January 11, 2014, 6:46 pm
On 1/11/2014 9:56 AM, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> There is NO WAY UNDER THE SUN that using a mixture of magnesium
> sulphate and water as a replacement for sulphuric acid as eletrolyte
> in a lead acid battery will yeild an operational battery.
>
That was my take on the whole thing.
But, someone appeared to have posted the recipe that worked for them.
Just waitin' for them to pop up with the claim.
Takes far less effort to do the experiment than to enter a pissing contest
about it here.
The battery has been sittin in the shed for several years waiting for
me to empty the electrolyte and recycle it anyway.
Posted by Jim Rojas on January 11, 2014, 7:12 pm
mike wrote:
> On 1/11/2014 9:56 AM, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>> There is NO WAY UNDER THE SUN that using a mixture of magnesium
>> sulphate and water as a replacement for sulphuric acid as eletrolyte
>> in a lead acid battery will yeild an operational battery.
>>
> That was my take on the whole thing.
> But, someone appeared to have posted the recipe that worked for them.
> Just waitin' for them to pop up with the claim.
> Takes far less effort to do the experiment than to enter a pissing contest
> about it here.
> The battery has been sittin in the shed for several years waiting for
> me to empty the electrolyte and recycle it anyway.
Yes. I see your point. I would just try the epson salt method, and see
if your battery is restored. It will at least clean out your old
battery. I don't see how a electric desulfication will work at all. You
are trying to remove build up from a chemical reaction.
After the 3 day trickle charge, drain the battery down, drain the
liquids, then add the recommend amount of battery acid and distilled
water. You can then do another 3 day 2 amp trickle charge.
Jim Rojas
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Posted by Jim Wilkins on January 11, 2014, 8:07 pm
> mike wrote:
>> On 1/11/2014 9:56 AM, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>
>>> There is NO WAY UNDER THE SUN that using a mixture of magnesium
>>> sulphate and water as a replacement for sulphuric acid as
>>> eletrolyte
>>> in a lead acid battery will yeild an operational battery.
>>>
> ...I don't see how a electric desulfication will work at all. You
> are trying to remove build up from a chemical reaction.
>
> Jim Rojas
Lead sulfate is the normal product of discharge, and recharging
converts it back to lead and lead dioxide.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/leadacid.html
PbSO4 is only a problem when it recrystallizes into a more stable,
less reactive form:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it
"During prolonged charge deprivation, however, the amorphous lead
sulfate converts to a stable crystalline that deposits on the negative
plates. This leads to the development of large crystals, which reduce
the battery's active material that is responsible for high capacity
and low resistance."
The next paragraph describes the overcharging process I use. Sometimes
it raises the specific gravity of the electrolyte, showing that solid
lead sulfate has been reconverted to liquid sulfuric acid, sometimes
it doesn't. I think monitoring the specific gravity is the best quick
way to tell if you are really desulfating the battery, and when it's
gone as far as it can.
jsw
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> My experiments suggest that the resistance that matters can be
> measured as voltage drop and recovery when the battery is nearly
> discharged. For example one that I tested recovered from 10V to ~11.5V
> after the inverter load shut itself off.
>
> A DC-AC inverter is a convenient test load because it has a low
> voltage shut off to protect the battery and you can adjust the power
> by plugging in 120V heaters, light bulbs, soldering irons etc. My
> crock pot draws 70W or 100W and doesn't get hot enough to accidentally
> burn me or wires that touch it.
> jsw
>
>