Posted by Neon John on June 24, 2007, 1:09 pm
I was sitting here thinking about well pumps and something hit me. Why don't
more
people, especially off-grid people, use rocking-horse pumps, the same kind that
you
see pumping oil from wells?
These things are incredibly efficient, particularly for very deep wells. The
weight
of the pull rod AND the weight of the water are offset by the counterweight on
the
rocking horse. All the electric motor has to overcome is a little friction and
whatever pressure is desired at the well head.
I've seen miniature rocking horse beams and gearboxes suitable for water sized
wells.
It would seem to me that this would be THE way to go for off-grid. A fractional
horse motor could pump from essentially any depth.
Comments?
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Risk: $20 hooker, year old condom.
Posted by Ulysses on June 24, 2007, 1:41 pm
> I was sitting here thinking about well pumps and something hit me. Why
don't more
> people, especially off-grid people, use rocking-horse pumps, the same kind
that you
> see pumping oil from wells?
> These things are incredibly efficient, particularly for very deep wells.
The weight
> of the pull rod AND the weight of the water are offset by the
counterweight on the
> rocking horse. All the electric motor has to overcome is a little
friction and
> whatever pressure is desired at the well head.
> I've seen miniature rocking horse beams and gearboxes suitable for water
sized wells.
> It would seem to me that this would be THE way to go for off-grid. A
fractional
> horse motor could pump from essentially any depth.
> Comments?
> John
I've found only one well pump similar to what you are talking about but it
uses gears instead of a counterweight etc. It has a 12 volt motor that is
somewhere around 8 amps if I recall correctly. The pump moves up and down
and it will run from a couple of solar panels. I am considering making
something of the sort one of these days because the one I saw was all
stainless steel and goes for around $1800. If I could get 2 gpm for 5 hours
a day I probably wouldn't need my 240 VAC well pump. One of the nice
features is that it will fit into the well head alongside the existing pipe
for the other pump. Now I have to go find out how rocking horses work ;-)
This just might make the thing a lot easier to build.
I also sounds like, if necessary, it could be used manually.
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Risk: $20 hooker, year old condom.
Posted by jan siepelstad on June 24, 2007, 1:42 pm
> I was sitting here thinking about well pumps and something hit me. Why
> don't more
> people, especially off-grid people, use rocking-horse pumps, the same kind
> that you
> see pumping oil from wells?
> These things are incredibly efficient, particularly for very deep wells.
> The weight
> of the pull rod AND the weight of the water are offset by the
> counterweight on the
> rocking horse. All the electric motor has to overcome is a little
> friction and
> whatever pressure is desired at the well head.
> I've seen miniature rocking horse beams and gearboxes suitable for water
> sized wells.
> It would seem to me that this would be THE way to go for off-grid. A
> fractional
> horse motor could pump from essentially any depth.
> Comments?
> John
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Risk: $20 hooker, year old condom.
You might think the motor only has to supply the power for the pressure at
the wellhead, but that's wrong.
The motor also has to supply the power to lift the water from the depth were
it was!
Offcourse you can make the counterweight in balance withe the watermass, but
then when the counterweight has rotated 180 degrees, you have to lift the
countermass, which needs power too!
Water does not come up by itself!
Posted by wmbjkREMOVE on June 24, 2007, 3:13 pm
>I was sitting here thinking about well pumps and something hit me. Why don't
more
>people, especially off-grid people, use rocking-horse pumps, the same kind that
you
>see pumping oil from wells?
Generally because they're more expensive and higher maintenance than
other alternatives. For example, solar submersibles can often be hung
on poly pipe and set by hand. Regular cylinder-type pumps need 2 or
2.5" galvanized column pipe plus an equal length of sucker rod. You
can pull fiberglass sucker rod by hand, but steel pipe gets heavy
fast. Try pricing that pipe and see if that doesn't dampen your
enthusiasm. You can price the jack mechanisms here
http://tinyurl.com/24rjuo .
>These things are incredibly efficient, particularly for very deep wells.
They aren't as efficient as these
http://store.solar-electric.com/grsqpu.html for example, which don't
need a sucker rod pulled regularly to change pump leathers. A friend
has a ~150k acre ranch with about 2 dozen wells. They're trying to
upgrade all the cylinder-based (wind and diesel) setups to solar
submersibles as budget allows.
> The weight
>of the pull rod AND the weight of the water are offset by the counterweight on
the
>rocking horse.
Not unless the water falls back down on every stroke....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TANSTAAFL
> All the electric motor has to overcome is a little friction and
>whatever pressure is desired at the well head.
Do the math for 500' and an 1-7/8" cylinder to see how "little" force
it takes to lift that water.
>I've seen miniature rocking horse beams and gearboxes suitable for water sized
wells.
>It would seem to me that this would be THE way to go for off-grid. A fractional
>horse motor could pump from essentially any depth.
A standard 3/4hp submersible can lift to 400'. A good solar
submersible can lift to 500' on about 300W (at a slower flow rate). An
even smaller motor and a gearbox can exert a lot of muscle, but it
will take longer. In an off-grid whole-house situation, by necessity
one often has unused reserve inverter capacity. Using it to shorten
pumping duration can make sense.
>Comments?
It's old technology that can still be a good (or only) choice if water
is too deep for a solar submersible, or if you can scrounge and don't
value your time very highly. I worked on a solar well last week that
was a 3 hour return trip by quad. The former wind pumper is laying in
a crumpled heap along with a bunch of heavily rusted column pipe and
sucker rod. All free for the taking I imagine. Bring your helicopter
or a sturdy mule pack if you want it. Add your own cylinder from here
http://www.deanbennett.com/deepwellcylinders.htm .
Wayne
Posted by Arnold Walker on June 24, 2007, 5:12 pm
>>
>>I was sitting here thinking about well pumps and something hit me. Why
>>don't more
>>people, especially off-grid people, use rocking-horse pumps, the same kind
>>that you
>>see pumping oil from wells?
> Generally because they're more expensive and higher maintenance than
> other alternatives. For example, solar submersibles can often be hung
> on poly pipe and set by hand. Regular cylinder-type pumps need 2 or
> 2.5" galvanized column pipe plus an equal length of sucker rod. You
> can pull fiberglass sucker rod by hand, but steel pipe gets heavy
> fast. Try pricing that pipe and see if that doesn't dampen your
> enthusiasm. You can price the jack mechanisms here
> http://tinyurl.com/24rjuo .
>>These things are incredibly efficient, particularly for very deep wells.
> They aren't as efficient as these
> http://store.solar-electric.com/grsqpu.html for example, which don't
> need a sucker rod pulled regularly to change pump leathers. A friend
> has a ~150k acre ranch with about 2 dozen wells. They're trying to
> upgrade all the cylinder-based (wind and diesel) setups to solar
> submersibles as budget allows.
>> The weight
>>of the pull rod AND the weight of the water are offset by the
>>counterweight on the
>>rocking horse.
> Not unless the water falls back down on every stroke....
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TANSTAAFL
>> All the electric motor has to overcome is a little friction and
>>whatever pressure is desired at the well head.
> Do the math for 500' and an 1-7/8" cylinder to see how "little" force
> it takes to lift that water.
>>I've seen miniature rocking horse beams and gearboxes suitable for water
>>sized wells.
>>It would seem to me that this would be THE way to go for off-grid. A
>>fractional
>>horse motor could pump from essentially any depth.
> A standard 3/4hp submersible can lift to 400'. A good solar
> submersible can lift to 500' on about 300W (at a slower flow rate). An
> even smaller motor and a gearbox can exert a lot of muscle, but it
> will take longer. In an off-grid whole-house situation, by necessity
> one often has unused reserve inverter capacity. Using it to shorten
> pumping duration can make sense.
>>Comments?
> It's old technology that can still be a good (or only) choice if water
> is too deep for a solar submersible, or if you can scrounge and don't
> value your time very highly. I worked on a solar well last week that
> was a 3 hour return trip by quad. The former wind pumper is laying in
> a crumpled heap along with a bunch of heavily rusted column pipe and
> sucker rod. All free for the taking I imagine. Bring your helicopter
> or a sturdy mule pack if you want it. Add your own cylinder from here
> http://www.deanbennett.com/deepwellcylinders.htm .
> Wayne
Luckily you ,,,,Speaking from Lufkin ,Texas home of the world's largest
supplier of oil
pumps.Walking beam oilpumps.
When was the last time, you had a submersible pump last 50years.
The average lifetime on our Lufkin Industries pumps are 38years.
And we have repaired pumps that died at 70years.
And walking beam water pumps have lasted 150+yrs (check some of the numbers
for British steam walking beams for municiple pumping.
The original steam walkinmg beam water pumps used in New Orleans only lasted
about 100yrs.
Granted all of them are larger than what mentioned in the thread ....pumping
water at an average of 32,00,000 gallons a day and developing about 12hp.
The piston itself usually has a checkvalve to prevent the water from going
back into well on the down stroke.
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