> > On 1/15/2011 1:59 AM, Daniel who wants to know wrote:
> > >> Again, one wonders why Toyota engineers didn't do this themselves. It's
> > >> quite easy--just do it with the appropriate thermostat, and keep the
> > >> coolant out of the radiator--out of the airstream--until it gets hotter.
> > >> So, the question stands: what are you breaking by doing this. What
> > >> DON'T you know about your car that the engineers DO know? What
> > >> expensive tradeoffs are you making in order to play your rolling video
> > >> game and make a high score appear on the screen?
> > >> You're no doubt increasing the total cost of ownership of the car in
> > >> ways you haven't anticipated, because you're laser focused on one thing
> > >> and one thing only: fuel mileage. You think that gives you bragging
> > >> rights.
> > >> You're like the guy who throws nitro into his Civic, then blows it up
> > >> street running against another ricer. You want one thing and one thing
> > >> only, and you don't care how much money you spend to get it.
> > >> It's highly ironic in this case that because you're doing things that
> > >> the engineers have already decided against, you're causing MORE harm to
> > >> the environment because your car won't last as long and will require
> > >> replacement sooner.
> > >> Your search for a high number on your rolling video game is harming the
> > >> environment.
> > > It's not me, I drive a '97 Lumina 3.1 that gets half the MPG of the NHW20
> > > Prius. I do want one with a burning passion though. Requirements are NHW20
> > > model, Seaside Pearl or Millennium Silver color, Smart key (SKS/SE,SS), non
> > > Touring, and preferably '05-'07 model year.
> > > And the Prius does have a thermostat on the ICE coolant loop but at 50 MPG
> > > it is only burning about 1 gallon per hour and the block itself can
> > > dissipate too much heat for it to stay warm.
> > > Methinks they should have installed air shutters in front of the radiators
> > > kind of like the old OTR trucks (semis / lorries)
> > > I personally loathe those who forget that the primary purpose of the Prius
> > > is low emissions not high MPG. Some are hacking into the wiring for the
> > > coolant temp sensor to fake a higher temp for better MPG. This is just
> > > straight up wrong. For me it falls right in line with the O2 simulators to
> > > fake MPG gains from HHO or eliminate a P0420/P0430 when gutting or removing
> > > the catalytic converter.
> > "Hypermiling" is a game. Some people love to fool themselves playing games.- Hide quoted text -
> > - Show quoted text -
> Fool themselves? Yes, I suppose it is fooling themselves if they
> spend more for a set of high mpg tires than what they save in fuel
> costs, especially if they have to swap tires in the winter because the
> high mpg ones stink in the snow. Or they spend $$ on a block heater
> that raises their electric bill more than what they save in gas. But
> averaging 60 mpg rather than 45 by driving differently and using a few
> tricks that cost little or nothing is not fooling themselves.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
I didn't say it had no effect, I said it doesn't have much affect.
How much more flex do you think 35 psi provides? What exactly do you
think causes 35 psi to provide more traction? If you don't answer you
will have shown that you don't know what you are talking about.
> On 1/15/2011 1:59 AM, Daniel who wants to know wrote:
> >> Again, one wonders why Toyota engineers didn't do this themselves. It's
> >> quite easy--just do it with the appropriate thermostat, and keep the
> >> coolant out of the radiator--out of the airstream--until it gets hotter.
My guess is that the thermostat (spring) behaves linearly with
temperature but the loss of energy/temperature due to an
extreme drop in temperature behaves in a non-linear fashion.
Hence, the thermostat cannot easily compensate. Grill blocking
is a very cheap solution ($ of pipe insulation) too. I've seen
school buses and diesel trucks do grill blocking in the past
so it's not a new ideal.
> >> So, the question stands: what are you breaking by doing this. What
> >> DON'T you know about your car that the engineers DO know? What
> >> expensive tradeoffs are you making in order to play your rolling video
> >> game and make a high score appear on the screen?
The risk to grill blocking is that the ICE or the MG could overheat
on a long drive. So the maximum internal temperatures need to
be known and monitored. for the 3rd/2nd generation Prius the
max coolant temperature is about 200 F - this is when the thermostat
is opened 100% and coolant flow is operating a peak speed.
When the maximum internal temperatures there is a risk that
the coolant system will not be able to remove the heat from the
ICE fast enough to prevent internal damage. So before that
maximum temperature is reached the grill blocking needs to
come off. While engineering wise grill blocking is not
necessary to run the Prius - it is an inexpensive way to
increase its fuel efficiency by about 10% in extreme cold.
So while the outside temperature is hovering somewhere
between 20 F and 32 F, the Prius is still averaging somewhere
between 52 to 54 mpg in mainly urban driving.conditions
for short distances. The advantages of grill blocking in cold
weather is less clear for highway driving ( > 50 mph) for long
distance ( two or more hours per driving session) because
at high speeds and for long distances - the ICE is running
more often and heat loss is less of a problem.
> >> You're no doubt increasing the total cost of ownership of the car in
> >> ways you haven't anticipated, because you're laser focused on one thing
> >> and one thing only: fuel mileage. You think that gives you bragging
> >> rights.
Elmo's fears and assessments are incorrect in several ways.
Hypermiling actually puts less wear and stress on the car
because acceleration and braking are done more gently.
For example, hypermilers often report extremely low brake
system wear. Hypermiling is generally focused on speeds
between 25 mph to 45 mph (with 55 mph being a niche interest)
inwhich special driving techniques are use to optimizing
one's driving for the current driving environment. Some
organizations like AAA discourage hypermiling due to
one hypermiling technique call drafting. However, I have
not advocated drafting. Rather I am using other easier
and safer hypermiling techniques, traffic light timing-
DWB (driving without brakes), pulse and glide, SHM, etc.
Increase fuel mileage also translates to lower fuel cost.
My thread is not about bragging but about how to maximize
fuel efficiency of a Prius and understand why it works
and when it won't work. In a few years, there
will be other cars whose fuel efficiency will overshadow
the Prius. While the 2010 Prius can't best a 1999
Honda Insight in hypermiling - its easier to drive. My
goal has been to see how close I could get to MPG levels
reported by hypermiler Wayne Gerdes (98 mpg
on a 2010 Prius) and to see what I could learn.
> >> You're like the guy who throws nitro into his Civic, then blows it up
> >> street running against another ricer. You want one thing and one thing
> >> only, and you don't care how much money you spend to get it.
LOL.
I look like a gearhead?
> >> It's highly ironic in this case that because you're doing things that
> >> the engineers have already decided against, you're causing MORE harm to
> >> the environment because your car won't last as long and will require
> >> replacement sooner.
Engineers must design based on performance and cost
compromises - Many major engineering compromises
are not done by engineers but by the CEO and Marketing types.
For example, those tail fins on cars in the 1950s were never
and engineer decision. Having a solar panel on the 2010
Prius was more of a marketing than an engineering decision.
The life of the tire probably going to be a little over three years
at best - I doubt my experiments will increase or decrease the
life of the current tires. I've read and heard many allegations
that this tire's manufacture products are of poor design
and quality , e.g. claims of tire rot. Sofar I haven't notice
anything unusally bad about these tires though.
The grill blocking is a well know and safe technique;
I am monitoring the coolant temperature and I know what
temperature to look for too.
.
My hunch is that hypermiling will extend the life of the car.
Reports by 1st Gen Prius owners seem to suggest that
the Prius traction battery has a very low failure rate and
that hypermiling will not prematurely wear it down.
> >> Your search for a high number on your rolling video game is harming the
> >> environment.
In a way learning can be like a game -- so the analogy that
what I am doing looks like a game has some truth to it.
The question is not whether one might be able to play this game,
but whether one is any good at playing this game
but to be more direct and explicit...
I am incrementally testing and verifying what I've read about
hypermiling
and I am humbly passing on what I have found.
One truth, I would like to pass on is that
one cannot learn hypermiling effectively by reading about it or
watching a video.
its more like a skill or a talent that one acquires
over time through practice .
> Methinks they should have installed air shutters in front of the radiators
> kind of like the old OTR trucks (semis / lorries)
Youthinks so out of ignorance of the entire picture.
You didn't do the engineering, you didn't do the engineering testing.
You don't *know* what (to you) unintended consequences come about by
blocking the radiator. That's my point. The engineers DO know. If
they could have gotten FREE miles with a simple blocking of the
radiator, they would have done so.
But nothing in this world comes free, and the engineers no doubt
discovered the REAL price the user pays by blocking the radiator. You,
on the other hand, don't know the REAL price. All you know is the
IMMEDIATE benefit. The long term cost? You aren't even considering
that there may be one.
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>
>> Methinks they should have installed air shutters in front of the radiators
>> kind of like the old OTR trucks (semis / lorries)
>
> Youthinks so out of ignorance of the entire picture.
>
> You didn't do the engineering, you didn't do the engineering testing.
> You don't *know* what (to you) unintended consequences come about by
> blocking the radiator. That's my point. The engineers DO know. If
> they could have gotten FREE miles with a simple blocking of the
> radiator, they would have done so.
>
> But nothing in this world comes free, and the engineers no doubt
> discovered the REAL price the user pays by blocking the radiator. You,
> on the other hand, don't know the REAL price. All you know is the
> IMMEDIATE benefit. The long term cost? You aren't even considering
> that there may be one.
I guess with all those words in all caps, you MUST BE RIGHT. ;-)
More likely Toyota didn't want to spend the extra money, and didn't want
to risk the cheapo shutters they would have installed staying closed in
warm weather. Since 2007 Toyota seems to have the design goal of "Cheap
plastic, everywhere possible."
> > >> Again, one wonders why Toyota engineers didn't do this themselves. It's
> > >> quite easy--just do it with the appropriate thermostat, and keep the
> > >> coolant out of the radiator--out of the airstream--until it gets hotter.
> > >> So, the question stands: what are you breaking by doing this. What
> > >> DON'T you know about your car that the engineers DO know? What
> > >> expensive tradeoffs are you making in order to play your rolling video
> > >> game and make a high score appear on the screen?
> > >> You're no doubt increasing the total cost of ownership of the car in
> > >> ways you haven't anticipated, because you're laser focused on one thing
> > >> and one thing only: fuel mileage. You think that gives you bragging
> > >> rights.
> > >> You're like the guy who throws nitro into his Civic, then blows it up
> > >> street running against another ricer. You want one thing and one thing
> > >> only, and you don't care how much money you spend to get it.
> > >> It's highly ironic in this case that because you're doing things that
> > >> the engineers have already decided against, you're causing MORE harm to
> > >> the environment because your car won't last as long and will require
> > >> replacement sooner.
> > >> Your search for a high number on your rolling video game is harming the
> > >> environment.
> > > It's not me, I drive a '97 Lumina 3.1 that gets half the MPG of the NHW20
> > > Prius. I do want one with a burning passion though. Requirements are NHW20
> > > model, Seaside Pearl or Millennium Silver color, Smart key (SKS/SE,SS), non
> > > Touring, and preferably '05-'07 model year.
> > > And the Prius does have a thermostat on the ICE coolant loop but at 50 MPG
> > > it is only burning about 1 gallon per hour and the block itself can
> > > dissipate too much heat for it to stay warm.
> > > Methinks they should have installed air shutters in front of the radiators
> > > kind of like the old OTR trucks (semis / lorries)
> > > I personally loathe those who forget that the primary purpose of the Prius
> > > is low emissions not high MPG. Some are hacking into the wiring for the
> > > coolant temp sensor to fake a higher temp for better MPG. This is just
> > > straight up wrong. For me it falls right in line with the O2 simulators to
> > > fake MPG gains from HHO or eliminate a P0420/P0430 when gutting or removing
> > > the catalytic converter.
> > "Hypermiling" is a game. Some people love to fool themselves playing games.- Hide quoted text -
> > - Show quoted text -
> Fool themselves? Yes, I suppose it is fooling themselves if they
> spend more for a set of high mpg tires than what they save in fuel
> costs, especially if they have to swap tires in the winter because the
> high mpg ones stink in the snow. Or they spend $$ on a block heater
> that raises their electric bill more than what they save in gas. But
> averaging 60 mpg rather than 45 by driving differently and using a few
> tricks that cost little or nothing is not fooling themselves.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -