Posted by *Was Istloben* on June 14, 2008, 9:43 pm

*> Was Istloben wrote:*

*>>*

*>>*

*>>>*

*>>>*

*>>> Pete Granzeau wrote:*

*>>>*

*>>>>*

*>>>>*

*>>>>>> I don't believe it is possible to calculate the cost of electricity.*

*>>>>>*

*>>>>>*

*>>>>>*

*>>>>> Trust me. I can read my bill and do the math.*

*>>>>*

*>>>>*

*>>>>*

*>>>> For one month. Next month may have a different rate structure.>*

*>>>>*

*>>>*

*>>> Right, the rate almos guaranteed to go up with energy supply cost.*

*>>>*

*>>>>>> The rates change in summer, to start with.*

*>>>>>*

*>>>>>*

*>>>>> Not here, but even if so, so what?*

*>>>>*

*>>>>*

*>>>>*

*>>>> So they do here. Which rate do you use to determine the cost of*

*>>>> electricity?*

*>>>>*

*>>>*

*>>> My projection of the forward curve, rotating off the front month.*

*>>>*

*>>> "High and higher."*

*>>>*

*>>>>*

*>>>>> Gasoline rates change in the northern hemisphere summer (go up) too.*

*>>>>>*

*>>>>>*

*>>>>>> Furthermore, there is a fixed charge for connection, and the rates *

*>>>>>> depend on how many kwh are consumed each month (so much for the first*

*>>>>>*

*>>>>>*

*>>>>>*

*>>>>> Yes, and integrating, you get a bill, and do the math.*

*>>>>>*

*>>>>> It's not rocket science.*

*>>>>*

*>>>>*

*>>>>*

*>>>> And next month, you have a different rate per kwh.*

*>>>*

*>>>*

*>>>*

*>>> No kidding, and no more of a case for a plug-in, around here at least.*

*>>>*

*>>> As I say, at rates approaching $.20 per kWh, it's not rocket science.*

*>>>*

*>>> No matter what sort of argument you want to make.*

*>>*

*>>*

*>> If the Toyota version of the Prius PHEV carries a 10K premium I couldn't *

*>> cost justify it even at my low off-peak rate.*

*> Which is the price point of the aftermarket A123 battery system.*

Exactly. If the premium were 3K to 4K I'd buy it but that isn't going to

happen anytime soon.

Posted by *Was Istloben* on June 13, 2008, 10:03 pm

*>>*

*>>>> What's the relationship cost per kWh power : cost per mile driven?*

*>>>*

*>>> I calculated the gas/electric equivalency at my off-peak rate a few*

*>>> years ago when the first plug-in Prius modifications became available.*

*>>> At my rate, which has since seen a slight increase, it was equivalent to*

*>>> 70 cent/gallon gas. Since my electricity comes from coal I expect the*

*>>> cost to increase dramatically over the next couple of years but even if*

*>>> it doubles it will be equivalent to $.40/gallon gas. My present*

*>>> off-peak rate is .043/kwh. My electric co-op says they will "work with*

*>>> me" on configuring my off-peak system to accommodate a plug-in vehicle*

*>>> since there aren't any on their network now.*

*>>>*

*>>> The maximum all-electric range at the time I looked into this was 40*

*>>> miles but I'd guess a practical range would be closer to 30 miles.*

*>>> There wouldn't be a big advantage to a traveling salesperson who drives*

*>>> 200 miles a day since there wouldn't be an opportunity to recharge.*

*>>> Someone with a 30 mile or less round trip commute would save a bundle at*

*>>> my current off-peak rate since they could recharge regularily.*

*>>>*

*>>>*

*>>*

*>>Our 24 hour rate (no off-peak metering) is $.198 per kWh (and going up*

*>>with NatGas), so sounds as if this translates to $.50/gallon (and going*

*>>up). Not so compelling here.*

*> I don't believe it is possible to calculate the cost of electricity. The*

*> rates change in summer, to start with. Furthermore, there is a fixed*

*> charge for connection, and the rates depend on how many kwh are consumed*

*> each month (so much for the first 800 kwh, a different rate for the*

*> excess). I don't see any peak/off peak rates, other than seasonal.*

I have two meters, and two panels:

The conventional meter/panel combination is billed at .095/kwh for the first

1000Kwh which I *always* exceed and .087/kwh after that.

The off-peak meter/panel combination also includes remote contols for my

furnace, air conditioner and water heater. They are contolled (shut off)

for intervals not to exceed 4 hours. The off-peak rate is .043.

In my situation a PHEV would, on average, be parked in my garage for at

least 12 hours/day. Allowing for a 4-hour control leaves 8 hours of

charging time at .043 while at the same time letting my co-op add that load

when they needed it.

As you can see, it easy to calculate the cost/kwh but without knowing the

efficiency of a PHEV's charging system, batteries, motors ect. it's

impossible to pin down a precise equivalency figure.

*> How many kwh will it take to recharge a 2010 Prius which has been driven*

*> 200 miles? It may have used 3 to 5 gallons of gas in that same time.*

Good question.

Posted by *Was Istloben* on June 14, 2008, 2:00 pm

*>> How many kwh will it take to recharge a 2010 Prius which has been driven*

*>> 200 miles? It may have used 3 to 5 gallons of gas in that same time.*

*> Good question.*

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25104169/

The article at the link above includes a hypothetical cost of running a

PHEV. Looks like more snake oil is entering the market too.

Posted by *Was Istloben* on June 14, 2008, 3:11 pm

*>>> How many kwh will it take to recharge a 2010 Prius which has been driven*

*>>> 200 miles? It may have used 3 to 5 gallons of gas in that same time.*

*>>*

*>> Good question.*

*> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25104169/ *

*> The article at the link above includes a hypothetical cost of running a *

*> PHEV. Looks like more snake oil is entering the market too.*

Specific to the Hymotion PHEV kit:

http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion/faqs/driving_your_plug_in_hybrid

At .043/kwh, my off-peak rate, 5 kwh of power would be acquired during a

4-hour charge costing 22 cents presuming the charging efficiency is 100%.

At my regular rate of .087/kwh that charge would cost 44 cents.

Lets presume you average 40 mpg with your Prius, modify it, and get 100 mpg

during the 40-mile phev range. Instead of burning $.00 worth of gas (at

$.00/gallon) you would burn $.00 worth of gas plus 5 times the cost/kwh of

your electricity or, at my regular rate, 44 cents. It would be costing me

44 cents for the equivalent of 1/2 gallon of gas or $.88/gallon. At the

off-peak rate the equivalency would by $.44/gallon.

Looking at it from a different perspective, the phev modification would

reduce the fuel cost from $.00 to $.88 at my regular rate for the first 40

miles after a charge.

Too bad we don't know the charging efficiency, actual mpg and actual phev

range. If we did, we could create a spreadsheet that would closely estimate

the costs for an individual's situation. Still, there is enough here for a

rough approximation.

Posted by *Michelle Steiner* on June 12, 2008, 12:28 pm

*> The maximum all-electric range at the time I looked into this was 40 *

*> miles but I'd guess a practical range would be closer to 30 miles. *

*> There wouldn't be a big advantage to a traveling salesperson who *

*> drives 200 miles a day since there wouldn't be an opportunity to *

*> recharge. Someone with a 30 mile or less round trip commute would *

*> save a bundle at my current off-peak rate since they could recharge *

*> regularily.*

A plug-in hybrid will still recharge from the ICE, just as the current

Prius does. That 200-mile-a-day driver will still benefit from the

hybrid technology.

--

Support the troops: Bring them home ASAP.

> Was Istloben wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pete Granzeau wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe it is possible to calculate the cost of electricity.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trust me. I can read my bill and do the math.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For one month. Next month may have a different rate structure.>>>>>>>>>>> Right, the rate almos guaranteed to go up with energy supply cost.>>>>>>>>> The rates change in summer, to start with.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not here, but even if so, so what?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So they do here. Which rate do you use to determine the cost of>>>> electricity?>>>>>>>>>> My projection of the forward curve, rotating off the front month.>>>>>> "High and higher.">>>>>>>>>>>> Gasoline rates change in the northern hemisphere summer (go up) too.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Furthermore, there is a fixed charge for connection, and the rates>>>>>> depend on how many kwh are consumed each month (so much for the first>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, and integrating, you get a bill, and do the math.>>>>>>>>>> It's not rocket science.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And next month, you have a different rate per kwh.>>>>>>>>>>>> No kidding, and no more of a case for a plug-in, around here at least.>>>>>> As I say, at rates approaching $.20 per kWh, it's not rocket science.>>>>>> No matter what sort of argument you want to make.>>>>>> If the Toyota version of the Prius PHEV carries a 10K premium I couldn't>> cost justify it even at my low off-peak rate.> Which is the price point of the aftermarket A123 battery system.