Posted by News on April 25, 2012, 1:29 am
On 4/24/2012 7:22 PM, Bruce Richmond wrote:
>> On 4/24/2012 9:50 AM, bwilson4web wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> A little pricy, $3/each, I bought two, Toyota SAE papers discussing
>>> the Prius c:
>>
>>> 2012-01-1017 - Development of the New THS-II Powertrain for Compact
>>> Vehicles
>>> 2012-01-0623 - Development of New Hybrid Transaxle for Sub-Compact-
>>> Class
>>> Vehicles
>>
>>> I don't know your technical background but I found both papers covered
>>> my technical questions:
>>
>>> o 1.5L engine with cooled exhaust gas recirculation - improves high-
>>> power efficiency
>>> o 20 module battery - saves weight
>>> o important transaxle design changes - saves weight, volume, and
>>> reduced noise
>>> o improved control laws - optimized for short trips
>>
>>> The 'Prius c' is in effect a refined version of the NHW11 (2001-03)
>>> but 265 lbs lighter and the practicality of a hatchback. Acceleration
>>> is not as fast as the 1.8L ZVW30 but it is still faster than
>>> competing, compact cars.
>>
>>> Bob Wilson
>>
>> Sluggish, in my opinion.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> So don't buy one.
Indeed, I fully intended to, but now won't.
Posted by rjdriver on April 25, 2012, 10:02 am
> On 4/24/2012 7:22 PM, Bruce Richmond wrote:
>>> On 4/24/2012 9:50 AM, bwilson4web wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> A little pricy, $3/each, I bought two, Toyota SAE papers discussing
>>>> the Prius c:
>>>
>>>> 2012-01-1017 - Development of the New THS-II Powertrain for Compact
>>>> Vehicles
>>>> 2012-01-0623 - Development of New Hybrid Transaxle for Sub-Compact-
>>>> Class
>>>> Vehicles
>>>
>>>> I don't know your technical background but I found both papers covered
>>>> my technical questions:
>>>
>>>> o 1.5L engine with cooled exhaust gas recirculation - improves high-
>>>> power efficiency
>>>> o 20 module battery - saves weight
>>>> o important transaxle design changes - saves weight, volume, and
>>>> reduced noise
>>>> o improved control laws - optimized for short trips
>>>
>>>> The 'Prius c' is in effect a refined version of the NHW11 (2001-03)
>>>> but 265 lbs lighter and the practicality of a hatchback. Acceleration
>>>> is not as fast as the 1.8L ZVW30 but it is still faster than
>>>> competing, compact cars.
>>>
>>>> Bob Wilson
>>>
>>> Sluggish, in my opinion.- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> So don't buy one.
> Indeed, I fully intended to, but now won't.
It's 10.5 second 0-60 time won't win any drag races. But as cars in general
go, it's got plenty of company at that rate, and as small compacts go,
unassisted by super or turbo chargers, it's better than some. Hope you test
drove it without ECO mode on. That dampens the pedal response.
And as I mentioned previously, the CV transmission can be decepetive. It
just doen't give you that "kicking into gear" surge feeling you get with
other tranmissions. The car *is* accelerating, and you *will* get up to
highways speeds in plenty of time on the entrance ramps, but you will not
have that same feeling your looking for. A turbocharged Golf TDI might be
more suitable for you. You'll still get 50 mpg, but with the turbo and a
normal transmission, at will do 0-60 in about 8 seconds. I had my choices
narrowed down to that and the C, but found the Golf lacking in some critical
areas.
Bob
Posted by News on April 25, 2012, 1:38 pm
On 4/25/2012 6:02 AM, rjdriver wrote:
>> On 4/24/2012 7:22 PM, Bruce Richmond wrote:
>>>> On 4/24/2012 9:50 AM, bwilson4web wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> A little pricy, $3/each, I bought two, Toyota SAE papers discussing
>>>>> the Prius c:
>>>>
>>>>> 2012-01-1017 - Development of the New THS-II Powertrain for Compact
>>>>> Vehicles
>>>>> 2012-01-0623 - Development of New Hybrid Transaxle for Sub-Compact-
>>>>> Class
>>>>> Vehicles
>>>>
>>>>> I don't know your technical background but I found both papers covered
>>>>> my technical questions:
>>>>
>>>>> o 1.5L engine with cooled exhaust gas recirculation - improves high-
>>>>> power efficiency
>>>>> o 20 module battery - saves weight
>>>>> o important transaxle design changes - saves weight, volume, and
>>>>> reduced noise
>>>>> o improved control laws - optimized for short trips
>>>>
>>>>> The 'Prius c' is in effect a refined version of the NHW11 (2001-03)
>>>>> but 265 lbs lighter and the practicality of a hatchback. Acceleration
>>>>> is not as fast as the 1.8L ZVW30 but it is still faster than
>>>>> competing, compact cars.
>>>>
>>>>> Bob Wilson
>>>>
>>>> Sluggish, in my opinion.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>
>>> So don't buy one.
>>
>> Indeed, I fully intended to, but now won't.
> It's 10.5 second 0-60 time won't win any drag races. But as cars in general
> go, it's got plenty of company at that rate, and as small compacts go,
> unassisted by super or turbo chargers, it's better than some. Hope you test
> drove it without ECO mode on. That dampens the pedal response.
> And as I mentioned previously, the CV transmission can be decepetive. It
> just doen't give you that "kicking into gear" surge feeling you get with
> other tranmissions. The car *is* accelerating, and you *will* get up to
> highways speeds in plenty of time on the entrance ramps, but you will not
> have that same feeling your looking for. A turbocharged Golf TDI might be
> more suitable for you. You'll still get 50 mpg, but with the turbo and a
> normal transmission, at will do 0-60 in about 8 seconds. I had my choices
> narrowed down to that and the C, but found the Golf lacking in some critical
> areas.
The CVT hunted incessantly and evidenced significant hysteresis.
The typical automatic slushbox has more positive feedback.
Posted by rjdriver on April 29, 2012, 2:07 am
> On 4/25/2012 6:02 AM, rjdriver wrote:
>>> On 4/24/2012 7:22 PM, Bruce Richmond wrote:
>>>>> On 4/24/2012 9:50 AM, bwilson4web wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> A little pricy, $3/each, I bought two, Toyota SAE papers discussing
>>>>>> the Prius c:
>>>>>
>>>>>> 2012-01-1017 - Development of the New THS-II Powertrain for Compact
>>>>>> Vehicles
>>>>>> 2012-01-0623 - Development of New Hybrid Transaxle for Sub-Compact-
>>>>>> Class
>>>>>> Vehicles
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know your technical background but I found both papers
>>>>>> covered
>>>>>> my technical questions:
>>>>>
>>>>>> o 1.5L engine with cooled exhaust gas recirculation - improves
>>>>>> high-
>>>>>> power efficiency
>>>>>> o 20 module battery - saves weight
>>>>>> o important transaxle design changes - saves weight, volume, and
>>>>>> reduced noise
>>>>>> o improved control laws - optimized for short trips
>>>>>
>>>>>> The 'Prius c' is in effect a refined version of the NHW11 (2001-03)
>>>>>> but 265 lbs lighter and the practicality of a hatchback. Acceleration
>>>>>> is not as fast as the 1.8L ZVW30 but it is still faster than
>>>>>> competing, compact cars.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob Wilson
>>>>>
>>>>> Sluggish, in my opinion.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>
>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>
>>>> So don't buy one.
>>>
>>> Indeed, I fully intended to, but now won't.
>>
>> It's 10.5 second 0-60 time won't win any drag races. But as cars in
>> general
>> go, it's got plenty of company at that rate, and as small compacts go,
>> unassisted by super or turbo chargers, it's better than some. Hope you
>> test
>> drove it without ECO mode on. That dampens the pedal response.
>>
>> And as I mentioned previously, the CV transmission can be decepetive. It
>> just doen't give you that "kicking into gear" surge feeling you get with
>> other tranmissions. The car *is* accelerating, and you *will* get up to
>> highways speeds in plenty of time on the entrance ramps, but you will not
>> have that same feeling your looking for. A turbocharged Golf TDI might
>> be
>> more suitable for you. You'll still get 50 mpg, but with the turbo and a
>> normal transmission, at will do 0-60 in about 8 seconds. I had my
>> choices
>> narrowed down to that and the C, but found the Golf lacking in some
>> critical
>> areas.
> The CVT hunted incessantly and evidenced significant hysteresis.
> The typical automatic slushbox has more positive feedback.
CVTs don't hunt. At least not in a way you should notice. If they
do, then something is wrong. They slide. And any hunting due to road
conditions and driver input should not be be perceptible. And a CVT will
never give you the kind of feedback you are used to, at least not with an
engine this small. I have driven my C for three weeks now, and there is no
hunting. As for your other complaint, if you did your test drive with ECO
mode on (salesman should have known better), that would require much more
pedal travel to get a response then if it was off. That kind of delay or
lag could easily be defined as hysteresis.
If you found anything to like in this vehicle at all, then I would go
back and drive it again. This time, tell the salesman you need to expience
it as it will be in real life, with just your weight in the vehicle, and no
passenger. Then, make sure ECO mode is off, and give it a real work out. I
did an informal 0-60 test today and counted it at 9 seconds. This may not
be the car for you, but somehow, I don't think you have seen it's full
potential yet.
Bob
Posted by Marilyn & Bob on April 29, 2012, 6:27 pm
On 4/28/2012 10:07 PM, rjdriver wrote:
>> On 4/25/2012 6:02 AM, rjdriver wrote:
>>>> On 4/24/2012 7:22 PM, Bruce Richmond wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/24/2012 9:50 AM, bwilson4web wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A little pricy, $3/each, I bought two, Toyota SAE papers discussing
>>>>>>> the Prius c:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2012-01-1017 - Development of the New THS-II Powertrain for Compact
>>>>>>> Vehicles
>>>>>>> 2012-01-0623 - Development of New Hybrid Transaxle for Sub-Compact-
>>>>>>> Class
>>>>>>> Vehicles
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know your technical background but I found both papers
>>>>>>> covered
>>>>>>> my technical questions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> o 1.5L engine with cooled exhaust gas recirculation - improves
>>>>>>> high-
>>>>>>> power efficiency
>>>>>>> o 20 module battery - saves weight
>>>>>>> o important transaxle design changes - saves weight, volume, and
>>>>>>> reduced noise
>>>>>>> o improved control laws - optimized for short trips
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The 'Prius c' is in effect a refined version of the NHW11 (2001-03)
>>>>>>> but 265 lbs lighter and the practicality of a hatchback. Acceleration
>>>>>>> is not as fast as the 1.8L ZVW30 but it is still faster than
>>>>>>> competing, compact cars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob Wilson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sluggish, in my opinion.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>>
>>>>> So don't buy one.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed, I fully intended to, but now won't.
>>>
>>> It's 10.5 second 0-60 time won't win any drag races. But as cars in
>>> general
>>> go, it's got plenty of company at that rate, and as small compacts go,
>>> unassisted by super or turbo chargers, it's better than some. Hope you
>>> test
>>> drove it without ECO mode on. That dampens the pedal response.
>>>
>>> And as I mentioned previously, the CV transmission can be decepetive. It
>>> just doen't give you that "kicking into gear" surge feeling you get with
>>> other tranmissions. The car *is* accelerating, and you *will* get up to
>>> highways speeds in plenty of time on the entrance ramps, but you will not
>>> have that same feeling your looking for. A turbocharged Golf TDI might
>>> be
>>> more suitable for you. You'll still get 50 mpg, but with the turbo and a
>>> normal transmission, at will do 0-60 in about 8 seconds. I had my
>>> choices
>>> narrowed down to that and the C, but found the Golf lacking in some
>>> critical
>>> areas.
>>
>>
>> The CVT hunted incessantly and evidenced significant hysteresis.
>>
>> The typical automatic slushbox has more positive feedback.
> CVTs don't hunt. At least not in a way you should notice. If they
> do, then something is wrong. They slide. And any hunting due to road
> conditions and driver input should not be be perceptible. And a CVT will
> never give you the kind of feedback you are used to, at least not with an
> engine this small. I have driven my C for three weeks now, and there is no
> hunting. As for your other complaint, if you did your test drive with ECO
> mode on (salesman should have known better), that would require much more
> pedal travel to get a response then if it was off. That kind of delay or
> lag could easily be defined as hysteresis.
> If you found anything to like in this vehicle at all, then I would go
> back and drive it again. This time, tell the salesman you need to expience
> it as it will be in real life, with just your weight in the vehicle, and no
> passenger. Then, make sure ECO mode is off, and give it a real work out. I
> did an informal 0-60 test today and counted it at 9 seconds. This may not
> be the car for you, but somehow, I don't think you have seen it's full
> potential yet.
> Bob
Just want to point out the the Prius does NOT have a ContinuousVT. It
has an ECVT and ElectronicallyControlledVT (note the difference in what
the "C" stand for). It does not have a set of sliding gears, but the
computer controls (among other things) the ratio of the engine output
which goes to the drive-train or to the motor-generator. With the
motors either adding power to the wheels or sending power to the battery
(or both), it's obviously more complicated than that, but the bottom
line is that the Prius does not switch gears in the conventional or CVT
sense and therefore can never "hunt".
--
Peace,
bobJ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> A little pricy, $3/each, I bought two, Toyota SAE papers discussing
>>> the Prius c:
>>
>>> 2012-01-1017 - Development of the New THS-II Powertrain for Compact
>>> Vehicles
>>> 2012-01-0623 - Development of New Hybrid Transaxle for Sub-Compact-
>>> Class
>>> Vehicles
>>
>>> I don't know your technical background but I found both papers covered
>>> my technical questions:
>>
>>> o 1.5L engine with cooled exhaust gas recirculation - improves high-
>>> power efficiency
>>> o 20 module battery - saves weight
>>> o important transaxle design changes - saves weight, volume, and
>>> reduced noise
>>> o improved control laws - optimized for short trips
>>
>>> The 'Prius c' is in effect a refined version of the NHW11 (2001-03)
>>> but 265 lbs lighter and the practicality of a hatchback. Acceleration
>>> is not as fast as the 1.8L ZVW30 but it is still faster than
>>> competing, compact cars.
>>
>>> Bob Wilson
>>
>> Sluggish, in my opinion.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> So don't buy one.