Posted by News on April 29, 2012, 6:38 pm
On 4/29/2012 2:27 PM, Marilyn & Bob wrote:
> On 4/28/2012 10:07 PM, rjdriver wrote:
>>> On 4/25/2012 6:02 AM, rjdriver wrote:
>>>>> On 4/24/2012 7:22 PM, Bruce Richmond wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/24/2012 9:50 AM, bwilson4web wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A little pricy, $3/each, I bought two, Toyota SAE papers
>>>>>>>> discussing
>>>>>>>> the Prius c:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2012-01-1017 - Development of the New THS-II Powertrain for Compact
>>>>>>>> Vehicles
>>>>>>>> 2012-01-0623 - Development of New Hybrid Transaxle for Sub-Compact-
>>>>>>>> Class
>>>>>>>> Vehicles
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know your technical background but I found both papers
>>>>>>>> covered
>>>>>>>> my technical questions:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> o 1.5L engine with cooled exhaust gas recirculation - improves
>>>>>>>> high-
>>>>>>>> power efficiency
>>>>>>>> o 20 module battery - saves weight
>>>>>>>> o important transaxle design changes - saves weight, volume, and
>>>>>>>> reduced noise
>>>>>>>> o improved control laws - optimized for short trips
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The 'Prius c' is in effect a refined version of the NHW11 (2001-03)
>>>>>>>> but 265 lbs lighter and the practicality of a hatchback.
>>>>>>>> Acceleration
>>>>>>>> is not as fast as the 1.8L ZVW30 but it is still faster than
>>>>>>>> competing, compact cars.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bob Wilson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sluggish, in my opinion.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So don't buy one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed, I fully intended to, but now won't.
>>>>
>>>> It's 10.5 second 0-60 time won't win any drag races. But as cars in
>>>> general
>>>> go, it's got plenty of company at that rate, and as small compacts go,
>>>> unassisted by super or turbo chargers, it's better than some. Hope you
>>>> test
>>>> drove it without ECO mode on. That dampens the pedal response.
>>>>
>>>> And as I mentioned previously, the CV transmission can be
>>>> decepetive. It
>>>> just doen't give you that "kicking into gear" surge feeling you get
>>>> with
>>>> other tranmissions. The car *is* accelerating, and you *will* get up to
>>>> highways speeds in plenty of time on the entrance ramps, but you
>>>> will not
>>>> have that same feeling your looking for. A turbocharged Golf TDI might
>>>> be
>>>> more suitable for you. You'll still get 50 mpg, but with the turbo
>>>> and a
>>>> normal transmission, at will do 0-60 in about 8 seconds. I had my
>>>> choices
>>>> narrowed down to that and the C, but found the Golf lacking in some
>>>> critical
>>>> areas.
>>>
>>>
>>> The CVT hunted incessantly and evidenced significant hysteresis.
>>>
>>> The typical automatic slushbox has more positive feedback.
>>
>> CVTs don't hunt. At least not in a way you should notice. If they
>> do, then something is wrong. They slide. And any hunting due to road
>> conditions and driver input should not be be perceptible. And a CVT will
>> never give you the kind of feedback you are used to, at least not with an
>> engine this small. I have driven my C for three weeks now, and there
>> is no
>> hunting. As for your other complaint, if you did your test drive with ECO
>> mode on (salesman should have known better), that would require much more
>> pedal travel to get a response then if it was off. That kind of delay or
>> lag could easily be defined as hysteresis.
>>
>> If you found anything to like in this vehicle at all, then I would go
>> back and drive it again. This time, tell the salesman you need to
>> expience
>> it as it will be in real life, with just your weight in the vehicle,
>> and no
>> passenger. Then, make sure ECO mode is off, and give it a real work
>> out. I
>> did an informal 0-60 test today and counted it at 9 seconds. This may not
>> be the car for you, but somehow, I don't think you have seen it's full
>> potential yet.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
> Just want to point out the the Prius does NOT have a ContinuousVT. It
> has an ECVT and ElectronicallyControlledVT (note the difference in what
> the "C" stand for). It does not have a set of sliding gears, but the
> computer controls (among other things) the ratio of the engine output
> which goes to the drive-train or to the motor-generator. With the motors
> either adding power to the wheels or sending power to the battery (or
> both), it's obviously more complicated than that, but the bottom line is
> that the Prius does not switch gears in the conventional or CVT sense
> and therefore can never "hunt".
> --
> Peace,
> bobJ
Perhaps not by design, but the drive-feel is slushy, lacking feedback.
Posted by Elmo P. Shagnasty on April 29, 2012, 6:52 pm
> Just want to point out the the Prius does NOT have a ContinuousVT. It
> has an ECVT and ElectronicallyControlledVT (note the difference in what
> the "C" stand for). It does not have a set of sliding gears, but the
> computer controls (among other things) the ratio of the engine output
> which goes to the drive-train or to the motor-generator.
Just want to point out that the Prius does have a continuously variable
transmission, which in form is exactly what you describe but in function
is a continuously variable transmission.
"CVT" does not by definition mean "variable width pullies and a belt".
It simply means that the transmission does not have stepped, discrete
gears.
Posted by Daniel who wants to know on April 30, 2012, 1:59 am
> Just want to point out that the Prius does have a continuously variable
> transmission, which in form is exactly what you describe but in function
> is a continuously variable transmission.
> "CVT" does not by definition mean "variable width pullies and a belt".
> It simply means that the transmission does not have stepped, discrete
> gears.
True, but the difference still needs to be pointed out as some see eCVT and
assume cone and belt, not a computer controlling the speed and direction
difference between 2 motor/generators attached to a planetary gearset.
Posted by Elmo P. Shagnasty on April 30, 2012, 10:09 am
> > "CVT" does not by definition mean "variable width pullies and a belt".
> > It simply means that the transmission does not have stepped, discrete
> > gears.
>
> True, but the difference still needs to be pointed out as some see eCVT and
> assume cone and belt, not a computer controlling the speed and direction
> difference between 2 motor/generators attached to a planetary gearset.
Eh. So?
Posted by News on April 30, 2012, 10:42 am
On 4/30/2012 6:09 AM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> "CVT" does not by definition mean "variable width pullies and a belt".
>>> It simply means that the transmission does not have stepped, discrete
>>> gears.
>>
>> True, but the difference still needs to be pointed out as some see eCVT and
>> assume cone and belt, not a computer controlling the speed and direction
>> difference between 2 motor/generators attached to a planetary gearset.
> Eh. So?
Exactly. High-tech electro-mechanical slush for the box.
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>>> On 4/25/2012 6:02 AM, rjdriver wrote:
>>>>> On 4/24/2012 7:22 PM, Bruce Richmond wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/24/2012 9:50 AM, bwilson4web wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A little pricy, $3/each, I bought two, Toyota SAE papers
>>>>>>>> discussing
>>>>>>>> the Prius c:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2012-01-1017 - Development of the New THS-II Powertrain for Compact
>>>>>>>> Vehicles
>>>>>>>> 2012-01-0623 - Development of New Hybrid Transaxle for Sub-Compact-
>>>>>>>> Class
>>>>>>>> Vehicles
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know your technical background but I found both papers
>>>>>>>> covered
>>>>>>>> my technical questions:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> o 1.5L engine with cooled exhaust gas recirculation - improves
>>>>>>>> high-
>>>>>>>> power efficiency
>>>>>>>> o 20 module battery - saves weight
>>>>>>>> o important transaxle design changes - saves weight, volume, and
>>>>>>>> reduced noise
>>>>>>>> o improved control laws - optimized for short trips
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The 'Prius c' is in effect a refined version of the NHW11 (2001-03)
>>>>>>>> but 265 lbs lighter and the practicality of a hatchback.
>>>>>>>> Acceleration
>>>>>>>> is not as fast as the 1.8L ZVW30 but it is still faster than
>>>>>>>> competing, compact cars.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bob Wilson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sluggish, in my opinion.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So don't buy one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed, I fully intended to, but now won't.
>>>>
>>>> It's 10.5 second 0-60 time won't win any drag races. But as cars in
>>>> general
>>>> go, it's got plenty of company at that rate, and as small compacts go,
>>>> unassisted by super or turbo chargers, it's better than some. Hope you
>>>> test
>>>> drove it without ECO mode on. That dampens the pedal response.
>>>>
>>>> And as I mentioned previously, the CV transmission can be
>>>> decepetive. It
>>>> just doen't give you that "kicking into gear" surge feeling you get
>>>> with
>>>> other tranmissions. The car *is* accelerating, and you *will* get up to
>>>> highways speeds in plenty of time on the entrance ramps, but you
>>>> will not
>>>> have that same feeling your looking for. A turbocharged Golf TDI might
>>>> be
>>>> more suitable for you. You'll still get 50 mpg, but with the turbo
>>>> and a
>>>> normal transmission, at will do 0-60 in about 8 seconds. I had my
>>>> choices
>>>> narrowed down to that and the C, but found the Golf lacking in some
>>>> critical
>>>> areas.
>>>
>>>
>>> The CVT hunted incessantly and evidenced significant hysteresis.
>>>
>>> The typical automatic slushbox has more positive feedback.
>>
>> CVTs don't hunt. At least not in a way you should notice. If they
>> do, then something is wrong. They slide. And any hunting due to road
>> conditions and driver input should not be be perceptible. And a CVT will
>> never give you the kind of feedback you are used to, at least not with an
>> engine this small. I have driven my C for three weeks now, and there
>> is no
>> hunting. As for your other complaint, if you did your test drive with ECO
>> mode on (salesman should have known better), that would require much more
>> pedal travel to get a response then if it was off. That kind of delay or
>> lag could easily be defined as hysteresis.
>>
>> If you found anything to like in this vehicle at all, then I would go
>> back and drive it again. This time, tell the salesman you need to
>> expience
>> it as it will be in real life, with just your weight in the vehicle,
>> and no
>> passenger. Then, make sure ECO mode is off, and give it a real work
>> out. I
>> did an informal 0-60 test today and counted it at 9 seconds. This may not
>> be the car for you, but somehow, I don't think you have seen it's full
>> potential yet.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
> Just want to point out the the Prius does NOT have a ContinuousVT. It
> has an ECVT and ElectronicallyControlledVT (note the difference in what
> the "C" stand for). It does not have a set of sliding gears, but the
> computer controls (among other things) the ratio of the engine output
> which goes to the drive-train or to the motor-generator. With the motors
> either adding power to the wheels or sending power to the battery (or
> both), it's obviously more complicated than that, but the bottom line is
> that the Prius does not switch gears in the conventional or CVT sense
> and therefore can never "hunt".
> --
> Peace,
> bobJ