Posted by Davoud on August 14, 2006, 8:43 pm
Steve Pardoe wrote:
> And also impractical because there is no infrastructure for fuelling
> millions of passenger cars with diesel? Surely the real problem is that our
> American friends have only recently come to appreciate the true cost of
> hydrocarbon consumption (political as well as economic and environmental)
> and haven't woken up to diesel for cars yet. That's also the main reason
> why the Prius has a gasoline engine. Believe me, you will wake up, and
> diesel hybrids will come.
Surely the real problem is that your American friends have /not/ /yet/
come to appreciate the true cost of hydrocarbon consumption, either
political or environmental. A governing regime that is thoroughly
corrupted by greed for oil profits is doing its best to keep people
from thinking about that -- doctoring research, trying to gag
scientists, announcing that more study is needed to determine whether
global warming is real, in short, doing all that it can to sow doubt as
to whether reducing fossil fuel consumption is a desirable thing. GM --
let us all bow our heads and pray that it goes bankrupt soon, taking
Ford with it! -- is doing its part by offering to buy gasoline for
those who buy its 9 MPG SUV's.
We will find out in November of 2006 -- and in November, 2008 -- the
extent to which Americans understand anything that is going on around
them.
Davoud
--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
Posted by mrv@kluge.net on August 15, 2006, 5:28 pm
Steve Pardoe wrote:
> I'm afraid you're out of date. "Euro IV" standard diesels are exceptionally
> clean-burning, have multiple catalysts, and many new cars have particulate
> traps. The lower CO2 emissions outweigh the slight (inevitable) increase in
> NOx.
So what about Euro IV? Diesels are under a different emissions rating
plan than petrol (gasoline) vehicles, mostly to diesel's benefit, under
the Euro standards.
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards.html to compare different emissions:
Euro standards:
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/ld.html
Euro 4, Diesel
CO 0.50 g/km = 0.807 g/mi
HC (not rated)
HC+NOx 0.30 g/km = 0.483 g/mi
NOx 0.25 g/km = 0.402 g/mi
PM 0.025 g/km = 0.040 g/mi
Euro 4, Gasoline
CO 1.0 g/km = 1.609 g/mi
HC 0.10 g/km = 0.161 g/mi
HC+NOx (not rated)
NOx 0.08 g/km = 0.129 g/mi
PM (not rated)
remembering to convert from g/km to g/mile is helpful. 1 gram /
kilometer = 1.609344 grams / mile
The US Tier2 regs do not separate the fuel type, but treat the fuel and
the car as a whole system. Because of the higher NOx and PM of diesel
fuel, they'll get classified in a lower Bin because of their emissions,
right next to an unclean gasoline car.
You can also view the US Tier2 and Tier 1 Emission standards here:
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicle/detailedchart.pdf
The US Prius meets the US Federal emission standards Tier 2 Bin 3, and
CA emission standard SULEV II (AT-PZEV). (It's the same car sold with
50-state emissions, just that some states do not recognize the CA
emission categories.) As an AT-PZEV, it must be guaranteed for 15
years/150,000 miles to meet the emissions standards, plus also have a
fully-sealed, zero emissions fuel system (no loss of evaporative
emissions).
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/22016.shtml
US Tier 2 Bin 3, Emission limits at 100,000-120,000 miles
NOx = 0.03 g/mi
NMOG = 0.055 g/mi
CO = 2.1 g/mi
PM = 0.01 g/mi
HCHO = 0.011 g/mi
CA SULEV II, Emission limits at 100,000-120,000 miles
NOx = 0.02 g/mi
NMOG = 0.010 g/mi
CO = 1.0 g/mi
PM = 0.01 g/mi
HCHO = 0.004 g/mi
My reading is that the Euro standards are very strict on CO, but if you
ignore that compound the Euro4 petrol standard is about a Tier2 Bin6,
and the Euro4 diesel standard is about a Tier2 Bin9c. But I could be
wrong on my matching of data...
> And also impractical because there is no infrastructure for fuelling
> millions of passenger cars with diesel?
Most filling stations have diesel pumps. The bigger problem is that
we're only starting to phase in low-sulfur diesel ( <15 ppm), which
Europeans have had for some time. (sulfur pollutes emission control
systems and leads to higher emissions.) I suppose once US diesel is as
clean as European fuel, we might start seeing more of the advanced
diesels the rest of the world has.
Of course, many Americans remember diesels of the past - unreliable in
winter, and belching large plumes of filthy smoke... That conception
will be hard to break for future offered diesels.
(I'll also note that US OSHA (Occupational Health and Safety
Administration) has various regulations on diesel exhaust, but I
haven't seen the quite so many for gasoline (mainly just for auto
repair shops or drive-through restaurants).
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/dieselexhaust/standards.html )
Posted by mark b on August 16, 2006, 10:21 pm
I have a four week old 2006. I get about 48 around town (suburban) and
on the highway, but somewhat better in hilly rural terrain (up to 52).
I noticed that others have experienced this as well. Tires are still
at original setting. In a real city it drops to around 46.
I am trying to see if different brands of gas effect mileage. My
latest tank of Getty seems to be doing better than the last tank
(Shell). I am in upstate NY.
Mark
Michelle Steiner wrote:
> > > The car has a built-in mileage computer. According to that
> > > computer, I averaged 51-52 MPG from last September through the end
> > > of May of this year. Mileage dropped to about 48 in June and 46 in
> > > July, but it's now back up to 51.
> >
> > Trip computers are notoriously inaccurate (erring on the economical
> > side - which auto manufacturer wouldn't prefer that?).
> The Prius doesn't use a trip computer; it measures the gas being
> injected into one cylinder, multiplies that by four, and divides it into
> the miles travelled.
> > The Prius is a reasonably economical car, especially in the urban
> > cycle, but it still ultimately gets _all_ its energy from a gasoline
> > engine, rather than a diesel, which is what we Europeans have come to
> > know and love.
> So? Diesel is dirty; it pollutes. There are a number of states
> (California, and most New England states, and New York) in the US where
> the sale of diesel automobiles, SUVs, pickups, and mini-vans is
> prohibited because of that.
>
> --
> Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
Posted by Davoud on August 4, 2006, 5:26 am
nospam@nospam.org wrote:
> I am planning on getting a new 2006 Prius.
>
> I would like to hear from others who own a 2006 and see exactly what
> your gas mileage is in the city and the highway. Please indicate if you
> use the AC and driving habits etc.
>
> I am looking for people whom have did the math rather then just how many
> miles to the fillup.
>
> Start with a full tank. Drive and write down miles driven. Fillup with
> fuel. Take miles driven and divide
> by the number of gallons used to fillup the car.
>
> I know that everyone knows how to do this, but the reason I specify this
> method is because I want an accurate
> reading.
>
> The window sticker says 60 in the city and 51 on the highway. I have a hard
> time believing this to be real world
> mileage as I have never gotten EPA sticker mileage on any car I have ever
> owned. So before I take the plunge and
> buy this car verses another to save fuel, I want to know what I'm getting
> into.
>
> Thanks so much and any other information you find may be useful to me, please
> post or E-mail directly to me.
Who is me? I missed your name. And your e-mail address is
nospam@nospam.org? There are ways of posting your e-mail address so
that it is not machine readable...
Davoud
--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
Posted by =?iso-8859-1?Q?mark=5Fdigital= on August 4, 2006, 9:31 am
>I am planning on getting a new 2006 Prius.
> I would like to hear from others who own a 2006 and see exactly what
> your gas mileage is in the city and the highway. Please indicate if you
> use the AC and driving habits etc.
> I am looking for people whom have did the math rather then just how many
> miles to the fillup.
> Start with a full tank. Drive and write down miles driven. Fillup with
> fuel. Take miles driven and divide
> by the number of gallons used to fillup the car.
> I know that everyone knows how to do this, but the reason I specify this
> method is because I want an accurate
> reading.
> The window sticker says 60 in the city and 51 on the highway. I have a
> hard time believing this to be real world
> mileage as I have never gotten EPA sticker mileage on any car I have ever
> owned. So before I take the plunge and
> buy this car verses another to save fuel, I want to know what I'm getting
> into.
> Thanks so much and any other information you find may be useful to me,
> please post or E-mail directly to me.
I can tell a Prius isn't in your future. Buy something else which already
has a bad reputation that can't suffer from more negativity.
mark_
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> millions of passenger cars with diesel? Surely the real problem is that our
> American friends have only recently come to appreciate the true cost of
> hydrocarbon consumption (political as well as economic and environmental)
> and haven't woken up to diesel for cars yet. That's also the main reason
> why the Prius has a gasoline engine. Believe me, you will wake up, and
> diesel hybrids will come.