Posted by Jeff Strickland on March 5, 2010, 1:04 pm
> On 3/4/2010 4:49 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>> That must be Toyota's way of taking the 5th!
>>>
>>> Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was
>>> practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not
>>> stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that
>>> emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.
>>>
>>> Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar
>>> to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden
>>> unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of
>>> lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.
>>>
>>> Full article at:
>>>
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AP-IMPACT-Toyota-secretive-on-apf-1294427692.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=
>>>
>>
>> It's time that black box data comes into the public domain. Just like OBD
>> II
>> data has been found to be public domain, black box data should be public
>> domain as well.
>>
>> It's my car, it's my data.
> The data is available to you now. I see no reason why you couldn't hook up
> a laptop to your present car and record everything at the data port in
> real time. There's probably a market for a recorder that is simply plugged
> into the port for later uploading although I doubt that most people would
> actually buy something like that.
> But not to worry, your car will soon be sending out data while you're
> driving. Recording data is easy now that all the subsystems on cars are
> being monitored. Add GPS and wireless capabilities and you're on your way
> to a brighter future. :-) Soon we'll be able to track most any car and
> pull info on it. You might be able to pull data from it too but I'm not so
> sure that it's gonna be your data. I think the government and the
> automobile manufacturers may have first dibs on that one. :-)
You're not following along very well. Toyota (specifically) and others have
the data in a proprietary format, and there was only one computer in the USA
that was able to read it. Toyota recently sent three more computers, so now
there are four that can read the Toyota data set from the black box. It is
coming to light that the boxes contain data that Toyota has spent millions
of dollars to NOT divulge on the basis of "industry secret," or some such
claim.
I'm not taking aim at Toyota, per se. My position is that black boxes should
be public domain so that the data set can be used by the vehicle owner and
his agent. If there is a reason to hide the data, that reason should be that
the consumer (owner) is the one that needs to be protected, not the vehicle
maker. Toyota's position is that black boxes contain information that would
make Toyota look bad, and therefore the data should be hidden. If Toyota
wants to avoid looking bad, then it can either fix its cars or stop selling
them. Toyota can use the data, if it fits, to show its innocence if somebody
is suing, but it ought not be able to hide the data to protect it from
liability.
Posted by dsi1 on March 5, 2010, 2:01 pm
On 3/5/2010 8:04 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> On 3/4/2010 4:49 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>>> That must be Toyota's way of taking the 5th!
>>>>
>>>> Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was
>>>> practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not
>>>> stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that
>>>> emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.
>>>>
>>>> Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar
>>>> to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden
>>>> unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of
>>>> lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.
>>>>
>>>> Full article at:
>>>>
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AP-IMPACT-Toyota-secretive-on-apf-1294427692.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's time that black box data comes into the public domain. Just like OBD
>>> II
>>> data has been found to be public domain, black box data should be public
>>> domain as well.
>>>
>>> It's my car, it's my data.
>>
>>
>> The data is available to you now. I see no reason why you couldn't hook up
>> a laptop to your present car and record everything at the data port in
>> real time. There's probably a market for a recorder that is simply plugged
>> into the port for later uploading although I doubt that most people would
>> actually buy something like that.
>>
>> But not to worry, your car will soon be sending out data while you're
>> driving. Recording data is easy now that all the subsystems on cars are
>> being monitored. Add GPS and wireless capabilities and you're on your way
>> to a brighter future. :-) Soon we'll be able to track most any car and
>> pull info on it. You might be able to pull data from it too but I'm not so
>> sure that it's gonna be your data. I think the government and the
>> automobile manufacturers may have first dibs on that one. :-)
>>
>>
>>
> You're not following along very well. Toyota (specifically) and others have
> the data in a proprietary format, and there was only one computer in the USA
> that was able to read it. Toyota recently sent three more computers, so now
> there are four that can read the Toyota data set from the black box. It is
> coming to light that the boxes contain data that Toyota has spent millions
> of dollars to NOT divulge on the basis of "industry secret," or some such
> claim.
If Toyota wants to call this data proprietary why not? Microsoft and
Apple have their proprietary data. I hate to break the news to you but
most companies have info they consider for internal use only. Do you
have a right to that stuff too? All I'm saying is that with a little
work, you can record data from your car in real time yourself.
> I'm not taking aim at Toyota, per se. My position is that black boxes should
> be public domain so that the data set can be used by the vehicle owner and
> his agent. If there is a reason to hide the data, that reason should be that
> the consumer (owner) is the one that needs to be protected, not the vehicle
> maker. Toyota's position is that black boxes contain information that would
> make Toyota look bad, and therefore the data should be hidden. If Toyota
> wants to avoid looking bad, then it can either fix its cars or stop selling
> them. Toyota can use the data, if it fits, to show its innocence if somebody
> is suing, but it ought not be able to hide the data to protect it from
> liability.
Sooner or later, Toyota and others will make this data available and
this kind of data will be available to accident investigations in the
future. That seems to be inevitable and there's not much use in getting
excited about the inevitable. It's likely that drivers as a group will
be hurt by this technology as in most cases, it will be considered solid
proof of their idiotic behavior. That's the breaks but that's what comes
from opening this Pandora's box. :-)
Posted by Jeff Strickland on March 5, 2010, 3:21 pm
> On 3/5/2010 8:04 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>> On 3/4/2010 4:49 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>>>> That must be Toyota's way of taking the 5th!
>>>>>
>>>>> Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was
>>>>> practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not
>>>>> stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that
>>>>> emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar
>>>>> to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden
>>>>> unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of
>>>>> lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Full article at:
>>>>>
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AP-IMPACT-Toyota-secretive-on-apf-1294427692.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's time that black box data comes into the public domain. Just like
>>>> OBD
>>>> II
>>>> data has been found to be public domain, black box data should be
>>>> public
>>>> domain as well.
>>>>
>>>> It's my car, it's my data.
>>>
>>>
>>> The data is available to you now. I see no reason why you couldn't hook
>>> up
>>> a laptop to your present car and record everything at the data port in
>>> real time. There's probably a market for a recorder that is simply
>>> plugged
>>> into the port for later uploading although I doubt that most people
>>> would
>>> actually buy something like that.
>>>
>>> But not to worry, your car will soon be sending out data while you're
>>> driving. Recording data is easy now that all the subsystems on cars are
>>> being monitored. Add GPS and wireless capabilities and you're on your
>>> way
>>> to a brighter future. :-) Soon we'll be able to track most any car and
>>> pull info on it. You might be able to pull data from it too but I'm not
>>> so
>>> sure that it's gonna be your data. I think the government and the
>>> automobile manufacturers may have first dibs on that one. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You're not following along very well. Toyota (specifically) and others
>> have
>> the data in a proprietary format, and there was only one computer in the
>> USA
>> that was able to read it. Toyota recently sent three more computers, so
>> now
>> there are four that can read the Toyota data set from the black box. It
>> is
>> coming to light that the boxes contain data that Toyota has spent
>> millions
>> of dollars to NOT divulge on the basis of "industry secret," or some such
>> claim.
> If Toyota wants to call this data proprietary why not? Microsoft and Apple
> have their proprietary data. I hate to break the news to you but most
> companies have info they consider for internal use only. Do you have a
> right to that stuff too? All I'm saying is that with a little work, you
> can record data from your car in real time yourself.
When MSoft or Apple develope products that can kill me while you are using
them, then we can discuss whether the codesets they use should be
proprietary or not. Right now, automakers are producing products that can
kill you if used the way they are intended, and they are hiding behind the
idea that the data stored is their data or your data.
>>
>> I'm not taking aim at Toyota, per se. My position is that black boxes
>> should
>> be public domain so that the data set can be used by the vehicle owner
>> and
>> his agent. If there is a reason to hide the data, that reason should be
>> that
>> the consumer (owner) is the one that needs to be protected, not the
>> vehicle
>> maker. Toyota's position is that black boxes contain information that
>> would
>> make Toyota look bad, and therefore the data should be hidden. If Toyota
>> wants to avoid looking bad, then it can either fix its cars or stop
>> selling
>> them. Toyota can use the data, if it fits, to show its innocence if
>> somebody
>> is suing, but it ought not be able to hide the data to protect it from
>> liability.
>>
> Sooner or later, Toyota and others will make this data available and this
> kind of data will be available to accident investigations in the future.
> That seems to be inevitable and there's not much use in getting excited
> about the inevitable. It's likely that drivers as a group will be hurt by
> this technology as in most cases, it will be considered solid proof of
> their idiotic behavior. That's the breaks but that's what comes from
> opening this Pandora's box. :-)
Soon or later is the problem. It should be sooner rather than later.
Posted by dsi1 on March 5, 2010, 4:08 pm
On 3/5/2010 10:21 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
> When MSoft or Apple develope products that can kill me while you are using
> them, then we can discuss whether the codesets they use should be
> proprietary or not. Right now, automakers are producing products that can
> kill you if used the way they are intended, and they are hiding behind the
> idea that the data stored is their data or your data.
> Soon or later is the problem. It should be sooner rather than later.
It will happen sooner than later so consider your wish granted. There's
no doubt in my mind that the government will mandate that all cars shall
have this electronic monitoring using the rational that this product can
kill you as justification. Just remember that you asked for it.
The truth is that soon, many consumer products will be recording our
behaviors and I don't much care for that. Even hearing aid are recording
data these days. That's modern life for you. :-)
Posted by Jeff Strickland on March 5, 2010, 4:57 pm
> On 3/5/2010 10:21 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>
>> When MSoft or Apple develope products that can kill me while you are
>> using
>> them, then we can discuss whether the codesets they use should be
>> proprietary or not. Right now, automakers are producing products that can
>> kill you if used the way they are intended, and they are hiding behind
>> the
>> idea that the data stored is their data or your data.
>>
>> Soon or later is the problem. It should be sooner rather than later.
>>
> It will happen sooner than later so consider your wish granted. There's no
> doubt in my mind that the government will mandate that all cars shall have
> this electronic monitoring using the rational that this product can kill
> you as justification. Just remember that you asked for it.
> The truth is that soon, many consumer products will be recording our
> behaviors and I don't much care for that. Even hearing aid are recording
> data these days. That's modern life for you. :-)
I'm not arguing that there should or should not be data. I'm arguing that if
there IS data, it's mine not the automakers'.
I'm not here to call for Big Brother to hide under the back seat of my car.
I'm here to say that if there is a window to what my car is doing AND that
window is already in my car, then I should be allowed to pry the window open
to see through it. The window ought not be locked shut in the name of
protecting the automaker. Indeed, if there is anybody in the equation that
needs to be protected, it's you and I not the automaker.
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>>> That must be Toyota's way of taking the 5th!
>>>
>>> Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was
>>> practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not
>>> stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that
>>> emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.
>>>
>>> Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar
>>> to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden
>>> unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of
>>> lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.
>>>
>>> Full article at:
>>>