wrote:
>john wrote:
>> "Remarkable doesn't begin to describe what's happening to Toyota Motor
>> Corp.
>>
>> Its reputation for delivering safe, reliable, quality-engineered
>> vehicles is in tatters.
>Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with an
>automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator pedals is
>only the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for other
>manufacturers (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more quickly.
>Ford has the honor of the biggest recall in history.
>What's helping Toyota's reputation is their quick action to fix the
>problems. Dealers are staying open 24/7 to fix customer's cars.
>All the experts agree that the damage to Toyota's reputation all depends
>on how quickly they fix customer's cars and how they treat the customers
>during the repair procedure. I don't know if it's the dealers
>themselves, or corporate Toyota that's paying for the perks that dealer
>are offering, but it's very reassuring to the owners. Most people are
>pretty reasonable when it comes to recalls. Tell them about the problem,
>fix it without a hassle, and they're happy. It's pretty rare for _any_
>car to not have at least a couple of recalls with the increasing
>complexity of vehicles.
That last sentence is a hoot. When a GM, Ford, or Chrysler had a
recall the "I love Toyota" crowd were all over them, there was no
"It's pretty rare for _any_ car to not have at least a couple of
recalls with the increasing complexity of vehicles." Now that it's
Toyota getting a black eye suddenly a recall is no big deal. And
similarly, even though Toyota has known about this problem for years,
the Toyota loyalists are claiming how "up front" T is and how
"quickly" they are addressing it.... my ass.
On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:30:47 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:
> (Cross postings deleted, automatically)
>
> Get real! No manufacturer has ever had any government required
> recall(s) that total as many as are currently being recalled by Toyota.
> Certainly not nearly as many that involve this many deaths and untold
> numbers of injuries
Really? This is the 5th largest recall of all time.
Better google Ford Transmission Recall. THey got out of it by sending you
an orange sticker to put on your dash that said "WARNING! This Motor
Vehicle may go from Park to Reverse at anytime without warning. Do not
leave vehicle idling."
Or some such BS. My roomate had a Country Squire Land Barge and that's
what he got in the mail. We had a good laugh over it and he stuck it to
the refrigerator. That was 1980 if I remember right.
Ford petitioned the government saying it would be too expensive to fix the
millions of transmissions that were on the road.
On June 10, 1980, NHTSA made an initial determination of defect in
Ford vehicles with C-3, C-4, C-6, FMX, and JATCO automatic
transmissions. The alleged problem with the transmissions is that a
safety defect permits them to slip accidentally from park to reverse.
As of the date of determination, NHTSA had received 23,000 complaints
about Ford transmissions, including reports of 6,000 accidents, 1,710
injuries, and 98 fatalities--primarily the young and old, unable to
save themselves--directly attributable to transmission slippage. As
detailed below, this defect finding eventually resulted in a
pseudo-recall wherein Ford agreed to mail warning labels to 23 million
owners of Fords with these transmissions rather than recall them for
mechanical repair. The Center for Auto Safety first called NHTSA's
attention to the problem in July 1977, and shortly thereafter NHTSA
instituted an investigation into 1966-79 Ford vehicles with C-6 or FMX
transmissions. In the face of apparent administrative inaction by
NHTSA, CAS in July 1978, renewed its warnings and asked NHTSA for a
recall. CAS produced evidence of 12 deaths and 100 accidents which
occurred because of transmission slippage. CAS reminded NHTSA of the
long established precedent of the Kelsey-Hayes wheel case (United
States v. General Motors Corp., 171 App. D.C. 27, 518 F.2d 420 (1975))
that a significant number of failures alone in normal use is a
sufficient legal basis for a recall without determination of a precise
cause of failure. But in October 1978, NHTSA denied the Center's
recall request. It did, however, term its investigation a "matter of
extremely high priority." NHTSA realized the magnitude of the proposed
recall put its investigation on politically sensitive ground. Hence,
any action required concrete evidence of defective design. On August
29, 1978, NHTSA issued a "Consumer Advisory" warning drivers not to
leave their vehicles unattended with the engine running for even a few
moments. The following month NHTSA conducted an investigation to find
out if complaints against Ford transmissions were disproportionately
higher than those against other manufacturers or whether the problem
was common for all automatic transmissions. The study revealed,
contrary to Ford's contentions, that Ford transmissions were 12 times
more likely than General Motors' and 14 times more likely than
Chryslers' to jump from park-to-reverse when jarred.
98 Deaths. Far more than the deaths reported for Toyota's problem, and the
problem may have been excaberated by people pressing the accelerator
hoping to free it.
Moreover:
In August, 1980, in accordance with the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle
Safety Act of 1966, as amended, NHTSA held hearings at which interested
persons were given the opportunity to present data and views as to the
existence of a safety-related defect in these transmissions. Two months
later, NHTSA Administrator Claybrook sent a memorandum to Secretary of
Transportation Goldschmidt announcing her intention to order the recall of
10 million Fords with C-3, C-4 and FMX automatic transmissions. With
respect to the JATCO and C-6 transmissions, she stated her belief that a
remedy, such as a warning device, might be negotiated with Ford.
Contrary to Administrator Claybrook's findings, on December 31, 1980,
Secretary Goldschmidt announced DOT's agreement to close its three and
one-half year investigation of the Ford automatic transmissions in
exchange for Ford's pledge to send notification and warning labels to
owners of almost 23 million Fords. On March 6, 1981, the Center for
Auto Safety filed suit to overturn the agreement between Ford and DOT
on the grounds that a mere warning label recall was illegal under the
National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act which required
mechanical remedy of defective vehicles and that there was no support
in the record showing a label would reduce the number of accidents,
deaths and injuries.
By 1984:
Despite findings by the agency that Ford "park-to-reverse" accidents had
resulted in a total of at least 306 deaths, and that the death rate from
the defect was higher in 1984 than in any other year in history except one
(1980), NHTSA announced on July 12, 1985, that it would not reopen the
case.
SIX YEARS and the problem was NEVER fixed! Over 300 deaths from faulty
tranmissions, and Ford got out of it with a sticker.
>
>
>> On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 21:47:22 -0800, SMS wrote:
>>
>>> Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with
>>> an automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator pedals
>>> is only
>>> the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for other
>>> manufacturers (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more quickly.
>>> Ford has the honor of the biggest recall in history.
>>
>>
>> And got out of it by providing you with a sticker for the dashboard...
>>
>>
>>
On 02/07/2010 07:47 AM, Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:30:47 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:
>> (Cross postings deleted, automatically)
>>
>> Get real! No manufacturer has ever had any government required
>> recall(s) that total as many as are currently being recalled by Toyota.
>> Certainly not nearly as many that involve this many deaths and untold
>> numbers of injuries
> Really? This is the 5th largest recall of all time.
> Better google Ford Transmission Recall. THey got out of it by sending you
> an orange sticker to put on your dash that said "WARNING! This Motor
> Vehicle may go from Park to Reverse at anytime without warning. Do not
> leave vehicle idling."
> Or some such BS. My roomate had a Country Squire Land Barge and that's
> what he got in the mail. We had a good laugh over it and he stuck it to
> the refrigerator. That was 1980 if I remember right.
> Ford petitioned the government saying it would be too expensive to fix the
> millions of transmissions that were on the road.
> On June 10, 1980, NHTSA made an initial determination of defect in
> Ford vehicles with C-3, C-4, C-6, FMX, and JATCO automatic
> transmissions. The alleged problem with the transmissions is that a
> safety defect permits them to slip accidentally from park to reverse.
> As of the date of determination, NHTSA had received 23,000 complaints
> about Ford transmissions, including reports of 6,000 accidents, 1,710
> injuries, and 98 fatalities--primarily the young and old, unable to
> save themselves--directly attributable to transmission slippage. As
> detailed below, this defect finding eventually resulted in a
> pseudo-recall wherein Ford agreed to mail warning labels to 23 million
> owners of Fords with these transmissions rather than recall them for
> mechanical repair. The Center for Auto Safety first called NHTSA's
> attention to the problem in July 1977, and shortly thereafter NHTSA
> instituted an investigation into 1966-79 Ford vehicles with C-6 or FMX
> transmissions. In the face of apparent administrative inaction by
> NHTSA, CAS in July 1978, renewed its warnings and asked NHTSA for a
> recall. CAS produced evidence of 12 deaths and 100 accidents which
> occurred because of transmission slippage. CAS reminded NHTSA of the
> long established precedent of the Kelsey-Hayes wheel case (United
> States v. General Motors Corp., 171 App. D.C. 27, 518 F.2d 420 (1975))
> that a significant number of failures alone in normal use is a
> sufficient legal basis for a recall without determination of a precise
> cause of failure. But in October 1978, NHTSA denied the Center's
> recall request. It did, however, term its investigation a "matter of
> extremely high priority." NHTSA realized the magnitude of the proposed
> recall put its investigation on politically sensitive ground. Hence,
> any action required concrete evidence of defective design. On August
> 29, 1978, NHTSA issued a "Consumer Advisory" warning drivers not to
> leave their vehicles unattended with the engine running for even a few
> moments. The following month NHTSA conducted an investigation to find
> out if complaints against Ford transmissions were disproportionately
> higher than those against other manufacturers or whether the problem
> was common for all automatic transmissions. The study revealed,
> contrary to Ford's contentions, that Ford transmissions were 12 times
> more likely than General Motors' and 14 times more likely than
> Chryslers' to jump from park-to-reverse when jarred.
> 98 Deaths. Far more than the deaths reported for Toyota's problem, and the
> problem may have been excaberated by people pressing the accelerator
> hoping to free it.
> Moreover:
> In August, 1980, in accordance with the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle
> Safety Act of 1966, as amended, NHTSA held hearings at which interested
> persons were given the opportunity to present data and views as to the
> existence of a safety-related defect in these transmissions. Two months
> later, NHTSA Administrator Claybrook sent a memorandum to Secretary of
> Transportation Goldschmidt announcing her intention to order the recall of
> 10 million Fords with C-3, C-4 and FMX automatic transmissions. With
> respect to the JATCO and C-6 transmissions, she stated her belief that a
> remedy, such as a warning device, might be negotiated with Ford.
> Contrary to Administrator Claybrook's findings, on December 31, 1980,
> Secretary Goldschmidt announced DOT's agreement to close its three and
> one-half year investigation of the Ford automatic transmissions in
> exchange for Ford's pledge to send notification and warning labels to
> owners of almost 23 million Fords. On March 6, 1981, the Center for
> Auto Safety filed suit to overturn the agreement between Ford and DOT
> on the grounds that a mere warning label recall was illegal under the
> National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act which required
> mechanical remedy of defective vehicles and that there was no support
> in the record showing a label would reduce the number of accidents,
> deaths and injuries.
> By 1984:
> Despite findings by the agency that Ford "park-to-reverse" accidents had
> resulted in a total of at least 306 deaths, and that the death rate from
> the defect was higher in 1984 than in any other year in history except one
> (1980), NHTSA announced on July 12, 1985, that it would not reopen the
> case.
> SIX YEARS and the problem was NEVER fixed! Over 300 deaths from faulty
> tranmissions, and Ford got out of it with a sticker.
wow, nice post. best post links to your sources though.
>>
>>
>>> On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 21:47:22 -0800, SMS wrote:
>>>
>>>> Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with
>>>> an automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator pedals
>>>> is only
>>>> the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for other
>>>> manufacturers (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more quickly.
>>>> Ford has the honor of the biggest recall in history.
>>>
>>>
>>> And got out of it by providing you with a sticker for the dashboard...
>>>
>>>
>>>
XML site map
>> "Remarkable doesn't begin to describe what's happening to Toyota Motor
>> Corp.
>>
>> Its reputation for delivering safe, reliable, quality-engineered
>> vehicles is in tatters.
>Actually it isn't. I was listening to an interview today on NPR with an
>automotive safety expert. The Toyota recall for accelerator pedals is
>only the 5th largest recall, and unlike bigger recalls for other
>manufacturers (Ford and GM) it's going to be solved much more quickly.
>Ford has the honor of the biggest recall in history.
>What's helping Toyota's reputation is their quick action to fix the
>problems. Dealers are staying open 24/7 to fix customer's cars.
>All the experts agree that the damage to Toyota's reputation all depends
>on how quickly they fix customer's cars and how they treat the customers
>during the repair procedure. I don't know if it's the dealers
>themselves, or corporate Toyota that's paying for the perks that dealer
>are offering, but it's very reassuring to the owners. Most people are
>pretty reasonable when it comes to recalls. Tell them about the problem,
>fix it without a hassle, and they're happy. It's pretty rare for _any_
>car to not have at least a couple of recalls with the increasing
>complexity of vehicles.