Posted by Michelle Steiner on July 24, 2007, 4:52 am
> BATTERIES?!? If that engine is anything like most modern engines it
> should be good for 10 years and 150,000 miles or so, are the
> batteries going to last that long?
Considering that the batteries are warranted for 10 years and 150,000
miles in California and other states that have implemented California's
emissions-control legislation, I'd say that the batteries will last at
least that long.
> >> The Prius is very different, and when things settle down again the
> >> drivetrain in a mainstream car may be quite different from today,
> >> but it won't be much like a Prius either.
> >
> > And that's a reason not to buy a Prius today?
>
> Well yes. Oddball technology is harder to get fixed when it starts
> aging.
Well, no. The reason to buy a Prius today is to help reduce pollution
today and to help reduce petroleum consumption today.
> It may be (will probably be) that hardly anyone except the dealer
> will be able to work on the things, and when it gets to be 10 to 20
> years old the dealer may not be able (or willing) to either.
Oh, oh; I guess the people who bought the first Priuses ten years ago
better start worrying. NOT!
--
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Posted by Mike Rosenberg on July 24, 2007, 1:53 am
> > In September, 2004, I bought a Prius for about the same price as a
> > comparably equipped Camry would have cost, and I've averaged 46 MPG
> > since then. Let's assume the Camry would have gotten 30 MPG. I've
> > driven 72,000 miles and have used about 1565 gallons of gas, whereas the
> > Camry would have used about 2400 gallons. Is that rational enough?
> >
> What is it going to cost to replace the batteries when they go bad? How
> about those two motor/generators?
_IF_ I end up having to pay for any of those, how much more will I have
saved on gasoline by then? I'm already down 835 gallons, and at an
average price of about $.35 per gallon over the time I've had the
Prius, that's a savings of almost $000 already.
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Posted by Marc Gerges on July 24, 2007, 8:32 pm
> What is it going to cost to replace the batteries when they go bad? How
> about those two motor/generators?
What makes you think they will go bad?
> Some of us keep our cars for a really long time, I've got well over
> 300,000 miles on my little Cherokee and have no plans to replace it.
> What is going to happen to a Prius as it gets really high mileage?
> Those cars are a lot more complected then a conventional car.
Most conventional cars don't go to 300000, because keeping them stops
being economical quite some time before that. Glad that your Cherokee
gives you good service, but why wouldn't a Prius do that?
> http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-technical-info
>
> There is a lot to be said for the KISS principal.
Like having a gear box with at least 11 cogs, and moving them in an out
all the time, pushing against synchronizing rings to adjust rotation
differences?
Standard technology is well understood and known. But KISS looks
different to me :-)
> I think the current hybrid technology is very much a transitional
> technology, much as the turboprop was. Technologies like GM is
> developing for the Chevy Volt are going to become a lot more common than
> current hybrid technology.
Actually turbo prop was developped after jet engines. 50 years on,
people still buy them and on short hops they seem to be very economical
and loved by the airlines.
Why would the fact it may be a transitional technology speak against
hybrids? Today it's a quite interesting package to eco conscious new car
buyers. That's what counts.
cu
.\arc
Posted by Jeff DeWitt on July 25, 2007, 1:40 am
Marc Gerges wrote:
>> What is it going to cost to replace the batteries when they go bad? How
>> about those two motor/generators?
>
> What makes you think they will go bad?
I don't know that they will, electric motors and generators potentially
have very long lives, there are electric cars almost 100 years old with
their original motors. But we just don't know about these, they haven't
been around that long... and however reliable they are they aren't gong
to be cheap to replace.
>
>> Some of us keep our cars for a really long time, I've got well over
>> 300,000 miles on my little Cherokee and have no plans to replace it.
>> What is going to happen to a Prius as it gets really high mileage?
>> Those cars are a lot more complected then a conventional car.
>
> Most conventional cars don't go to 300000, because keeping them stops
> being economical quite some time before that. Glad that your Cherokee
> gives you good service, but why wouldn't a Prius do that?
Even assuming the motor/generators, the power split device and the drive
chains hold up to get that kind of life the engine is going to have to
be rebuilt and the batteries replaced. I've no doubt a Prius COULD be
made to last that long, when you come right down to it any car can be
kept going for as long as you are willing to spend money on it.
I've got a total of about $,000 in repairs aside from normal
maintenance stuff in that 300,000 miles. (Engine, clutch and radiator)
>
>> http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-technical-info
>>
>> There is a lot to be said for the KISS principal.
>
> Like having a gear box with at least 11 cogs, and moving them in an out
> all the time, pushing against synchronizing rings to adjust rotation
> differences?
>
> Standard technology is well understood and known. But KISS looks
> different to me :-)
Ever look inside an automatic? As you say stick shift technology is
well understood and I know more about the inside of those things than
I'd care to remember... my Jeep may be about as reliable as a cement
block but my 48 year old Studebaker is something else again!
>
>> I think the current hybrid technology is very much a transitional
>> technology, much as the turboprop was. Technologies like GM is
>> developing for the Chevy Volt are going to become a lot more common than
>> current hybrid technology.
>
> Actually turbo prop was developped after jet engines. 50 years on,
> people still buy them and on short hops they seem to be very economical
> and loved by the airlines.
I stand corrected.
>
> Why would the fact it may be a transitional technology speak against
> hybrids? Today it's a quite interesting package to eco conscious new car
> buyers. That's what counts.
It speaks against hybrids if you want to keep the thing for a long time,
if your going to buy one, drive it for a few years and sell it again
that's something else again.
Jeff DeWitt
Posted by Marc Gerges on July 25, 2007, 8:05 am
>> Most conventional cars don't go to 300000, because keeping them stops
>> being economical quite some time before that. Glad that your Cherokee
>> gives you good service, but why wouldn't a Prius do that?
>
> Even assuming the motor/generators, the power split device and the drive
> chains hold up to get that kind of life the engine is going to have to
> be rebuilt and the batteries replaced. I've no doubt a Prius COULD be
> made to last that long, when you come right down to it any car can be
> kept going for as long as you are willing to spend money on it.
Look at the battery as no more than 166 D cells, because that's in the
end what it is (they're even replaceable in packs of 6 or 8, I think).
Does the thought of these frighten you? There's 6 of them in every
ghetto blaster.
There's no drive chains, and the power split device is a bunch of gears
in constant mesh. Old technology, never breaks. The engine is just an
engine, and the traction motors are just plain old electric motors that
live a hundred years.
> I've got a total of about $,000 in repairs aside from normal
> maintenance stuff in that 300,000 miles. (Engine, clutch and radiator)
I would still expect the battery to keep up over 300000 - there's a
bunch of Priuses around that age really, really well. And 4000 in
repairs already buys a handful of shiny new parts for a Prius.
>> Standard technology is well understood and known. But KISS looks
>> different to me :-)
>
> Ever look inside an automatic? As you say stick shift technology is
> well understood and I know more about the inside of those things than
> I'd care to remember... my Jeep may be about as reliable as a cement
> block but my 48 year old Studebaker is something else again!
PSD has what... 5 cogs, in constant mesh?
>> Why would the fact it may be a transitional technology speak against
>> hybrids? Today it's a quite interesting package to eco conscious new car
>> buyers. That's what counts.
>
> It speaks against hybrids if you want to keep the thing for a long time,
> if your going to buy one, drive it for a few years and sell it again
> that's something else again.
So, would you buy a conventional car today, understood it's aged
technology past its prime?
cu
.\arc
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> should be good for 10 years and 150,000 miles or so, are the
> batteries going to last that long?