Posted by *Ron Rosenfeld* on July 8, 2008, 3:41 am

On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 23:37:26 -0700 (PDT), bealiba@gmail.com wrote:

*>You talk a lot of nonsense Tweedledee.*

*>None of your questions mean anything in relation to the minimum*

*>battery capacity as stated. At (B9) you enter the battery capacity of*

*>the battery you choose. You chose Trojan T105s at 225 ah. I put that*

*>in the formula. The only thing that changed was the daily DoD. It fell*

*>from 68% to 54%.*

You are the only one who is making those entries. I don't use that

spreadsheet, and I surely would not have you make data entry for me.

Just to refresh your memory, here is the math:

---------------------

AC Load 2500W x 0.5hrs/day --> 1250 watt-hrs/day

Inverter Efficiency 85%

Adjusted AC Load 1471 Watt-hrs/day

Nominal system voltage 12V (This is appropriate for your panels)

Total load in AH 123 amp-hrs per day

System Losses, etc 20%

Total Required 147 amp-hrs per day

Worst month insolation 5.08 kWh/m^2 per day (effective full sun hours)

Required array current 28.95A (total/insolation)

Numbe of panels 28.95/2.94 --> 9.85 --> 10 panels

-----------------------------------

Nothing in there about batteries.

Nothing in there about using your spreadsheet or any of your calculations.

--ron

Posted by *bealiba* on July 9, 2008, 5:27 am

*> On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 23:37:26 -0700 (PDT), beal...@gmail.com wrote:*

*> >You talk a lot of nonsense Tweedledee.*

*> >None of your questions mean anything in relation to the minimum*

*> >battery capacity as stated. At (B9) you enter the battery capacity of*

*> >the battery you choose. You chose Trojan T105s at 225 ah. I put that*

*> >in the formula. The only thing that changed was the daily DoD. It fell*

*> >from 68% to 54%.*

*> You are the only one who is making those entries. I don't use that*

*> spreadsheet, and I surely would not have you make data entry for me.*

*> Just to refresh your memory, here is the math:*

*> ---------------------*

*> AC Load 2500W x 0.5hrs/day --> 1250 watt-hrs/day*

*> Inverter Efficiency 85%*

*> Adjusted AC Load 1471 Watt-hrs/day*

*> Nominal system voltage 12V (This is appropriate for your panels)*

*> Total load in AH 123 amp-hrs per day*

*> System Losses, etc 20%*

*> Total Required 147 amp-hrs per day*

*> Worst month insolation 5.08 kWh/m^2 per day (effective full sun hours)*

*> Required array current 28.95A (total/insolation)*

*> Numbe of panels 28.95/2.94 --> 9.85 --> 10 panels*

*> -----------------------------------*

*> Nothing in there about batteries.*

*> Nothing in there about using your spreadsheet or any of your calculations.*

*> --ron*

Ok, let's look at a system to run 2500Watts of pump for 30 Minutes.

Tweedledee has proposed a system without batteries.

This is the proposal;

---------------------

AC Load 2500W x 0.5hrs/day --> 1250 watt-hrs/day

Inverter Efficiency 85%

Adjusted AC Load 1471 Watt-hrs/day

Nominal system voltage 12V (This is appropriate for your panels)

Total load in AH 123 amp-hrs per day

System Losses, etc 20%

Total Required 147 amp-hrs per day

Worst month insolation 5.08 kWh/m^2 per day (effective full sun

hours)

Required array current 28.95A (total/insolation)

Numbe of panels 28.95/2.94 --> 9.85 --> 10 panels

-----------------------------------

Simple enough, but then Tweedledee is pretty simple.

First is 1250 Watt hours a day @ 230 Volts AC {This is actually

2941.18 Watts that the inverter is drawing}

The inverter is 85% efficient so we adjust the Whs to 1471Whs {2941.14

Watts}

Nominal system voltage 12V {keep this in mind}

Total load in AH 123 amp-hrs per day {245.1 Amps}

System Losses, etc 20%

Total Required 147 amp-hrs per day {At 12V = 294.12 Amps}

Worst month insolation 5.08 kWh/m^2 per day (effective full sun

hours)

Required array current 28.95A (total/insolation) {Will produce 147.07

Ahs at 12 Volts over 5.08 hours the pump is required to run for half

an hour}

Numbe of panels 28.95/2.94 --> 9.85 --> 10 panels

BUT, the pump requires 2500 Watts to run (2500 Watts / 12V = 208.33

Amps) and something like five times that to start (1041.65 Amps)and

this doesn't even take into account the inverters efficiency.

No matter how you slice it 28.95 amps at 12 volts ain't gonna run that

pump.

Without batteries, Tweedledee's proposal is pure nonsense.

Now Tweedledee will say that of course there are batteries.

BUT, if there are batteries they must be part of the calculation.

Tweedledee is up to his ass in shit and sinking fast.

Posted by *Ron Rosenfeld* on July 10, 2008, 1:18 am

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:27:08 -0700 (PDT), bealiba@gmail.com wrote:

*>> On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 23:37:26 -0700 (PDT), beal...@gmail.com wrote:*

*>> >You talk a lot of nonsense Tweedledee.*

*>>*

*>> >None of your questions mean anything in relation to the minimum*

*>> >battery capacity as stated. At (B9) you enter the battery capacity of*

*>> >the battery you choose. You chose Trojan T105s at 225 ah. I put that*

*>> >in the formula. The only thing that changed was the daily DoD. It fell*

*>> >from 68% to 54%.*

*>>*

*>> You are the only one who is making those entries. I don't use that*

*>> spreadsheet, and I surely would not have you make data entry for me.*

*>>*

*>> Just to refresh your memory, here is the math:*

*>>*

*>> ---------------------*

*>> AC Load 2500W x 0.5hrs/day --> 1250 watt-hrs/day*

*>> Inverter Efficiency 85%*

*>> Adjusted AC Load 1471 Watt-hrs/day*

*>>*

*>> Nominal system voltage 12V (This is appropriate for your panels)*

*>> Total load in AH 123 amp-hrs per day*

*>> System Losses, etc 20%*

*>>*

*>> Total Required 147 amp-hrs per day*

*>>*

*>> Worst month insolation 5.08 kWh/m^2 per day (effective full sun hours)*

*>>*

*>> Required array current 28.95A (total/insolation)*

*>>*

*>> Numbe of panels 28.95/2.94 --> 9.85 --> 10 panels*

*>> -----------------------------------*

*>>*

*>> Nothing in there about batteries.*

*>>*

*>> Nothing in there about using your spreadsheet or any of your calculations.*

*>>*

*>> --ron*

*>Ok, let's look at a system to run 2500Watts of pump for 30 Minutes.*

*>Tweedledee has proposed a system without batteries.*

*>This is the proposal;*

*>---------------------*

*>AC Load 2500W x 0.5hrs/day --> 1250 watt-hrs/day*

*>Inverter Efficiency 85%*

*>Adjusted AC Load 1471 Watt-hrs/day*

*>Nominal system voltage 12V (This is appropriate for your panels)*

*>Total load in AH 123 amp-hrs per day*

*>System Losses, etc 20%*

*>Total Required 147 amp-hrs per day*

*>Worst month insolation 5.08 kWh/m^2 per day (effective full sun*

*>hours)*

*>Required array current 28.95A (total/insolation)*

*>Numbe of panels 28.95/2.94 --> 9.85 --> 10 panels*

*>-----------------------------------*

*>Simple enough, but then Tweedledee is pretty simple.*

*>First is 1250 Watt hours a day @ 230 Volts AC {This is actually*

*>2941.18 Watts that the inverter is drawing}*

*>The inverter is 85% efficient so we adjust the Whs to 1471Whs {2941.14*

*>Watts}*

*>Nominal system voltage 12V {keep this in mind}*

*>Total load in AH 123 amp-hrs per day {245.1 Amps}*

*>System Losses, etc 20%*

*>Total Required 147 amp-hrs per day {At 12V = 294.12 Amps}*

*>Worst month insolation 5.08 kWh/m^2 per day (effective full sun*

*>hours)*

*>Required array current 28.95A (total/insolation) {Will produce 147.07*

*>Ahs at 12 Volts over 5.08 hours the pump is required to run for half*

*>an hour}*

*>Numbe of panels 28.95/2.94 --> 9.85 --> 10 panels*

*>BUT, the pump requires 2500 Watts to run (2500 Watts / 12V = 208.33*

*>Amps) and something like five times that to start (1041.65 Amps)and*

*>this doesn't even take into account the inverters efficiency.*

*>No matter how you slice it 28.95 amps at 12 volts ain't gonna run that*

*>pump.*

*>Without batteries, Tweedledee's proposal is pure nonsense.*

*>Now Tweedledee will say that of course there are batteries.*

*>BUT, if there are batteries they must be part of the calculation.*

*>Tweedledee is up to his ass in shit and sinking fast.*

I see you are blathering again, George.

You clearly are not interested in having any kind of serious conversation.

You are more interested in parsing out bits and pieces of what has been

written so you can engage in some uncreative name-calling.

You obviously didn't understand why I asked the OP about methods and the

need for energy storage, as compared with your recommendation of a 154

panel system.

--ron

Posted by *bealiba* on July 10, 2008, 1:58 am

*> On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:27:08 -0700 (PDT), beal...@gmail.com wrote:*

*> >> On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 23:37:26 -0700 (PDT), beal...@gmail.com wrote:*

*> >> >You talk a lot of nonsense Tweedledee.*

*> >> >None of your questions mean anything in relation to the minimum*

*> >> >battery capacity as stated. At (B9) you enter the battery capacity of*

*> >> >the battery you choose. You chose Trojan T105s at 225 ah. I put that*

*> >> >in the formula. The only thing that changed was the daily DoD. It fell*

*> >> >from 68% to 54%.*

*> >> You are the only one who is making those entries. I don't use that*

*> >> spreadsheet, and I surely would not have you make data entry for me.*

*> >> Just to refresh your memory, here is the math:*

*> >> ---------------------*

*> >> AC Load 2500W x 0.5hrs/day --> 1250 watt-hrs/day*

*> >> Inverter Efficiency 85%*

*> >> Adjusted AC Load 1471 Watt-hrs/day*

*> >> Nominal system voltage 12V (This is appropriate for your panels)*

*> >> Total load in AH 123 amp-hrs per day*

*> >> System Losses, etc 20%*

*> >> Total Required 147 amp-hrs per day*

*> >> Worst month insolation 5.08 kWh/m^2 per day (effective full sun hours)*

*> >> Required array current 28.95A (total/insolation)*

*> >> Numbe of panels 28.95/2.94 --> 9.85 --> 10 panels*

*> >> -----------------------------------*

*> >> Nothing in there about batteries.*

*> >> Nothing in there about using your spreadsheet or any of your calculations.*

*> >> --ron*

*> >Ok, let's look at a system to run 2500Watts of pump for 30 Minutes.*

*> >Tweedledee has proposed a system without batteries.*

*> >This is the proposal;*

*> >---------------------*

*> >AC Load 2500W x 0.5hrs/day --> 1250 watt-hrs/day*

*> >Inverter Efficiency 85%*

*> >Adjusted AC Load 1471 Watt-hrs/day*

*> >Nominal system voltage 12V (This is appropriate for your panels)*

*> >Total load in AH 123 amp-hrs per day*

*> >System Losses, etc 20%*

*> >Total Required 147 amp-hrs per day*

*> >Worst month insolation 5.08 kWh/m^2 per day (effective full sun*

*> >hours)*

*> >Required array current 28.95A (total/insolation)*

*> >Numbe of panels 28.95/2.94 --> 9.85 --> 10 panels*

*> >-----------------------------------*

*> >Simple enough, but then Tweedledee is pretty simple.*

*> >First is 1250 Watt hours a day @ 230 Volts AC {This is actually*

*> >2941.18 Watts that the inverter is drawing}*

*> >The inverter is 85% efficient so we adjust the Whs to 1471Whs {2941.14*

*> >Watts}*

*> >Nominal system voltage 12V {keep this in mind}*

*> >Total load in AH 123 amp-hrs per day {245.1 Amps}*

*> >System Losses, etc 20%*

*> >Total Required 147 amp-hrs per day {At 12V = 294.12 Amps}*

*> >Worst month insolation 5.08 kWh/m^2 per day (effective full sun*

*> >hours)*

*> >Required array current 28.95A (total/insolation) {Will produce 147.07*

*> >Ahs at 12 Volts over 5.08 hours the pump is required to run for half*

*> >an hour}*

*> >Numbe of panels 28.95/2.94 --> 9.85 --> 10 panels*

*> >BUT, the pump requires 2500 Watts to run (2500 Watts / 12V = 208.33*

*> >Amps) and something like five times that to start (1041.65 Amps)and*

*> >this doesn't even take into account the inverters efficiency.*

*> >No matter how you slice it 28.95 amps at 12 volts ain't gonna run that*

*> >pump.*

*> >Without batteries, Tweedledee's proposal is pure nonsense.*

*> >Now Tweedledee will say that of course there are batteries.*

*> >BUT, if there are batteries they must be part of the calculation.*

*> >Tweedledee is up to his ass in shit and sinking fast.*

*> I see you are blathering again, George.*

*> You clearly are not interested in having any kind of serious conversation.*

*> You are more interested in parsing out bits and pieces of what has been*

*> written so you can engage in some uncreative name-calling.*

*> You obviously didn't understand why I asked the OP about methods and the*

*> need for energy storage, as compared with your recommendation of a 154*

*> panel system.*

*> --ron*

*> Nothing in there about batteries.*

*> Nothing in there about using your spreadsheet or any of your calculations.*

*> --ron*

As you wished, no batteries, no spreadsheet. Using your calculations.

So predictable. Tell us how 29 Amps of panels at 12 Volts is going to

run a pump that requires 2500 Watts at 230 Volts without batteries.

Because that's what you said. You can't get much more serious than

that.

Perhaps you now want to add the batteries to the equation now.

Posted by *wmbjkREMOVE* on July 8, 2008, 12:39 am

On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 22:44:54 -0400, Ron Rosenfeld

*>You can't even enter the OP's data correctly into your spreadsheet.*

*>But if you want more real data, all you need to do is provide the specs on*

*>your 180Ah battery, and the simulation is simple to do.*

*>Give me the specs on your 180 Ah battery, and I'll give you the numbers for*

*>a simulation of your 11 panel, 180 Ah battery system for Kilauea, HI.*

*>George's Battery:*

*>Nominal Capacity: 180Ah*

*>Nominal Voltage: ???*

*>Round Trip Efficiency ??*

*>Min state of charge: ??*

*>Float life: ?? yrs*

*>Max charge rate: ? A/Ah*

*>Max charge current: ? A*

*>Lifetime throughput: ? kWh*

*>Also a Capacity curve (A vs Ah) and a Lifetime curve (DOD vs Cycles to*

*>failure)*

*>Because of the location, there's probably no need for you to supply a Temp*

*>vs capacity curve or coefficient. The temperatures don't vary that much*

*>from the annual mean of 24°C.*

*>--ron*

Some save time by substituting rules of thumb for manufacturers'

specs. This makes sense on Planet Ghio because somebody with a few

years of experience with a propane tank and a 1kWh per day solar setup

is obviously sure to know more than companies that build batteries...

or anybody for that matter. In fact, our very own power consultant

ghinius' brain has so many RoTs crammed into it that there simply

isn't any room left for learning anything useful, er... new. It's

apparently a case of stagnation due to knowing too much! <snorf>

Wayne

>You talk a lot of nonsense Tweedledee.>None of your questions mean anything in relation to the minimum>battery capacity as stated. At (B9) you enter the battery capacity of>the battery you choose. You chose Trojan T105s at 225 ah. I put that>in the formula. The only thing that changed was the daily DoD. It fell>from 68% to 54%.