Posted by never on April 6, 2007, 2:13 am
A newbie here - when I make my request, you'll no doubt readily see
it's true - and I have a rather simple question(s).
Three weeks from today, I will be attending a meeting of interested
citizens who are looking into the broad array of solar voltaic system
for both business and residential use. At the meeting, we expect
several key folks to be in attendance, solar sales people, local
elected officials, municipal administrators, school district people,
and residential property owners like me.
Each of the property owners has already heard the great presentation
of the wonders of solar voltaic grid-tied systems as one means of
cutting the electricity bills and reducing the dependency on the
electric company to supply the "juice."
I have read nearly 300 posts on a variety of subjects posted by the
obviously knowledgeable on the this newsgroup. And with that have
gathered points, comments, and recommendation for improvement,
installation, upgrading and problem solving. As an example: a brief
discussion/recommedation for uses of photo voltaic ways to bring cool
air into buildings, outdoor lighting, etc.
No one in our group has heard anyone address the issues of
disadvantages verses advantages, trade off analyses of systems verses
power supply. Nor has anyone really heard anyone discuss their
experiences with the systems for residential use, any problems,
upgrading capabilities, etc.
Our group is comprised of folks who are best described as retired,
elderly, property owners, most have family trust holding for their
family members. One of the questions that often comes up is, should
those of us so interested have installed a solar voltaic system in
their homes when we will not see the end result of the investment of
20, 25, 30, 35,000 dollars? Most of us will be gone to the Great Maker
in the Sky in another ten years. Will it be worth the investment to
pass on to our children? What challenges will they face in the upkeep
of the system? Old folks need to know in order to make the best
choices and plans.
Could anyone provide a glimpse into the pluses and minuses of the
systems, the real experiences from the consumer's point of view.
If some wish to communicate with me via email: Donn at dci@cheetah.net
I look forward to the responses and comments.
Thank you in advance.
Donn
Posted by Eric Sears on April 6, 2007, 5:45 am
On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 23:13:35 -0700, never@million wrote:
I will make just a few comments - but in the end there are many
factors to consider, which come back to the basic question of WHY you
are doing this.
Is it because -
a) you want to save the planet?
b) you want to save money?
c) you want to be more independent?
d) you live in a place where grid power is either unavailable or very
expensive?
(and there are probably other factors)
>Each of the property owners has already heard the great presentation
>of the wonders of solar voltaic grid-tied systems as one means of
>cutting the electricity bills and reducing the dependency on the
>electric company to supply the "juice."
Effectively you have said b) and c). Note that these are really quite
different reasons. And beware of the hype!
If you have ready access to grid power, and it is sold purely at
market value without too many added distortions - you are unlikely to
be any better off going to solar power, as far as cost is involved.
If it were NOT so, then all the power companies (using their large
buying power), would also be investing in it.
The only systems that might be cheaper than a powerco, could be
systems that are self-installed, using "bargain-priced" components.
(They CAN be done, but you have to search - and probably accept
compromises). - and of course, those situations where you are a long
distance from grid supply.
"Dependency" is another issue - but unless you have some sort of
"storage" - I can't see that you will be any less dependent. When the
grid goes down - YOU will be down too.
>As an example: a brief
>discussion/recommedation for uses of photo voltaic ways to bring cool
>air into buildings, outdoor lighting, etc.
Fine - but why use photovoltaic? The same things work more cheaply on
grid power in general.
>Our group is comprised of folks who are best described as retired,
>elderly, property owners, most have family trust holding for their
>family members. One of the questions that often comes up is, should
>those of us so interested have installed a solar voltaic system in
>their homes when we will not see the end result of the investment of
>20, 25, 30, 35,000 dollars? Most of us will be gone to the Great Maker
>in the Sky in another ten years. Will it be worth the investment to
>pass on to our children? What challenges will they face in the upkeep
>of the system? Old folks need to know in order to make the best
>choices and plans.
It might make more sense to use grid power and pass on the money to
your children - unless you know they are dead keen to inherit such a
system! Ask them.
>Could anyone provide a glimpse into the pluses and minuses of the
>systems, the real experiences from the consumer's point of view.
I am still in the process of installing about 1.5kw of panels in an
urban situation in New Zealand. I imported the solar laminates from US
at a good price (US$2.50 per watt). After framing them with welded
alloy frames - they still cost about half of the cost of buying
similar panels in NZ.
I use secondhand batteries, and a MSW inverter - to provide SOME of my
power - at a cost which will likely see payback in about 15 years. By
doing this I am also able to take advantage of a "low user" tarrif for
the supply charge.
However, I did not do this chiefly to "save money". It was more about
a) and c) on the list above.
YMMV.
Eric Sears.
Posted by never on April 6, 2007, 12:53 pm
On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 09:45:59 GMT, phoneme@025379386.for.email.address
(Eric Sears) wrote:
>On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 23:13:35 -0700, never@million wrote:
>I will make just a few comments - but in the end there are many
>factors to consider, which come back to the basic question of WHY you
>are doing this.
>Is it because -
>a) you want to save the planet?
>b) you want to save money?
>c) you want to be more independent?
>d) you live in a place where grid power is either unavailable or very
>expensive?
> (and there are probably other factors)
>>
>>Each of the property owners has already heard the great presentation
>>of the wonders of solar voltaic grid-tied systems as one means of
>>cutting the electricity bills and reducing the dependency on the
>>electric company to supply the "juice."
>Effectively you have said b) and c). Note that these are really quite
>different reasons. And beware of the hype!
>If you have ready access to grid power, and it is sold purely at
>market value without too many added distortions - you are unlikely to
>be any better off going to solar power, as far as cost is involved.
>If it were NOT so, then all the power companies (using their large
>buying power), would also be investing in it.
>The only systems that might be cheaper than a powerco, could be
>systems that are self-installed, using "bargain-priced" components.
>(They CAN be done, but you have to search - and probably accept
>compromises). - and of course, those situations where you are a long
>distance from grid supply.
>"Dependency" is another issue - but unless you have some sort of
>"storage" - I can't see that you will be any less dependent. When the
>grid goes down - YOU will be down too.
>>
>>As an example: a brief
>>discussion/recommedation for uses of photo voltaic ways to bring cool
>>air into buildings, outdoor lighting, etc.
>Fine - but why use photovoltaic? The same things work more cheaply on
>grid power in general.
>>
>>
>>Our group is comprised of folks who are best described as retired,
>>elderly, property owners, most have family trust holding for their
>>family members. One of the questions that often comes up is, should
>>those of us so interested have installed a solar voltaic system in
>>their homes when we will not see the end result of the investment of
>>20, 25, 30, 35,000 dollars? Most of us will be gone to the Great Maker
>>in the Sky in another ten years. Will it be worth the investment to
>>pass on to our children? What challenges will they face in the upkeep
>>of the system? Old folks need to know in order to make the best
>>choices and plans.
>It might make more sense to use grid power and pass on the money to
>your children - unless you know they are dead keen to inherit such a
>system! Ask them.
>>
>>Could anyone provide a glimpse into the pluses and minuses of the
>>systems, the real experiences from the consumer's point of view.
>I am still in the process of installing about 1.5kw of panels in an
>urban situation in New Zealand. I imported the solar laminates from US
>at a good price (US$2.50 per watt). After framing them with welded
>alloy frames - they still cost about half of the cost of buying
>similar panels in NZ.
>I use secondhand batteries, and a MSW inverter - to provide SOME of my
>power - at a cost which will likely see payback in about 15 years. By
>doing this I am also able to take advantage of a "low user" tarrif for
>the supply charge.
>However, I did not do this chiefly to "save money". It was more about
>a) and c) on the list above.
>YMMV.
>Eric Sears.
Eric,
Thank you for your response. I'm sure it'll generate deeper discussion
at our meeting.
Donn
Posted by Ron Rosenfeld on April 6, 2007, 8:02 am
On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 23:13:35 -0700, never@million wrote:
>No one in our group has heard anyone address the issues of
>disadvantages verses advantages, trade off analyses of systems verses
>power supply. Nor has anyone really heard anyone discuss their
>experiences with the systems for residential use, any problems,
>upgrading capabilities, etc.
I am off the grid. But, as far as I can tell, the only "real" disadvantage
of a grid-tied system is the cost. The equipment, properly installed,
should be fairly fool-proof. If you cannot roof-mount the system, there
might also be some esthetic issues that would affect the value of your
property.
Of course, you have to consider, as another wrote, your reason for making
the investment.
If you are in a location where there are good gov't rebates for the
installation (and don't forget about the federal rebate available this
year), and if your electric bills are high, then a properly sized system
might save you money. But there are a number of calculations that need to
be done to ensure that.
Don't make the mistake that many do of ignoring the cost of money.
For example, if you can earn 8% on your money, and you invest $20,000 after
rebates in your PV system, that "investment" is "costing" you $1,600/year
plus depreciation (or, if you're lucky, minus appreciation) on the value of
your house per year with the system. That would be your "break-even"
point. (But you need to be realistic about how much you are earning on
your money. It might be more or less).
If you are installing the system so as to be "independent of the grid",
your investment will be quite a bit higher, as you will require a battery
bank large enough to keep things running during grid-power outages. The
"usual" grid-tied system does not have the backup capability. With the
batteries, the "maintenance-free" variety are considerably more expensive,
for the same capacity, than the "lead-acid" type -- but the latter will
require maintenance.
Personally, I would NOT make the investment with the idea of passing it on
to my children unless I was absolutely certain that they would be using it,
or unless you were pretty certain, that in your area, the presence of a PV
system would enhance the salability of the home. Amongst my acquaintances,
sale of the parent's home is much more common than is using it.
--ron
Posted by never on April 6, 2007, 12:58 pm
On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 08:02:54 -0400, Ron Rosenfeld
>On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 23:13:35 -0700, never@million wrote:
>>No one in our group has heard anyone address the issues of
>>disadvantages verses advantages, trade off analyses of systems verses
>>power supply. Nor has anyone really heard anyone discuss their
>>experiences with the systems for residential use, any problems,
>>upgrading capabilities, etc.
>I am off the grid. But, as far as I can tell, the only "real" disadvantage
>of a grid-tied system is the cost. The equipment, properly installed,
>should be fairly fool-proof. If you cannot roof-mount the system, there
>might also be some esthetic issues that would affect the value of your
>property.
>Of course, you have to consider, as another wrote, your reason for making
>the investment.
>If you are in a location where there are good gov't rebates for the
>installation (and don't forget about the federal rebate available this
>year), and if your electric bills are high, then a properly sized system
>might save you money. But there are a number of calculations that need to
>be done to ensure that.
>Don't make the mistake that many do of ignoring the cost of money.
>For example, if you can earn 8% on your money, and you invest $20,000 after
>rebates in your PV system, that "investment" is "costing" you $1,600/year
>plus depreciation (or, if you're lucky, minus appreciation) on the value of
>your house per year with the system. That would be your "break-even"
>point. (But you need to be realistic about how much you are earning on
>your money. It might be more or less).
>If you are installing the system so as to be "independent of the grid",
>your investment will be quite a bit higher, as you will require a battery
>bank large enough to keep things running during grid-power outages. The
>"usual" grid-tied system does not have the backup capability. With the
>batteries, the "maintenance-free" variety are considerably more expensive,
>for the same capacity, than the "lead-acid" type -- but the latter will
>require maintenance.
>Personally, I would NOT make the investment with the idea of passing it on
>to my children unless I was absolutely certain that they would be using it,
>or unless you were pretty certain, that in your area, the presence of a PV
>system would enhance the salability of the home. Amongst my acquaintances,
>sale of the parent's home is much more common than is using it.
>--ron
Ron, thank you for the quick and direct response. good points to
discuss and consider.
Donn
XML site map
>of the wonders of solar voltaic grid-tied systems as one means of
>cutting the electricity bills and reducing the dependency on the
>electric company to supply the "juice."