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solar in CA? where to start? - Page 6

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Posted by dold on March 16, 2007, 12:46 pm
dold@30.usenet.us.com wrote:

Prowling around some more PG&E pages:
"New requirements: All incentive recipients must satisfy the following new
conditions to obtain the incentives:
    * Install separate meters to measure solar output and report
    * performance back to the program administrator.

That would allow different rates for energy flowing in the two directions,
although that isn't mentioned.

Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA  GPS: 38.8,-122.5

Posted by Duane C. Johnson on March 16, 2007, 2:23 pm
 > dold@30.usenet.us.com wrote:

 > > base rate. Someone needs to check my math again...
 > > for example, 1 160W panel cost $00, conservatively
 > > speaking, I get 5 hrs of sun avg. 5x160W = 800W
 > > generated, lets just say it takes 800W of usage

This is not correct.

5 hours times 160 watts = 800 watt hours or
5hr * 160W = 800Whr
Learn how to properly use the correct units.

 > > of out my bill per day. that maybe worth 11 cents
 > > a day. Or 7272 days to payback for the panel. Seems
 > > to scale similarly. This is for the cost of panel
 > > only, not counting batteries, replacement

This is not realistic.

OK, this is about 19.9 years.

If you just put the $00 in a bank at say
5% interest rate you would get
$00 * 1.05/yr ^ 19.9yr = $113.30
The cost of the electricity for the 19.9yr
would be $00, in todays dollars, so you are
loosing $313.30 in this example.
And loosing even more if you count the
maintenance, inverter, panel mounts, and permits.

 > > The only way I see it reach some sort of payback
 > > properly is with grid tie system.. for a person
 > > with a daytime job and go home at night, is to go
 > > with the E-6 or E-7 time of use plan and just use
 > > most of the electricity at off peak hours.

I don't see how you could ever make this cost
effective if you are on the grid.


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Posted by dold on March 16, 2007, 5:44 pm
Nor did I say it.

PG&E rates are up more than 5% per year, so the basis is flawed.  The
declared average PG&E rate was up 15% in 2006.  Tier 1 and 2 have not gone
up since 2004, but T3,4,5 were up 15,27,39% in 2006.

Phrasing it a different way, if I took a 6.5% loan to buy the system, the
avoided energy costs last year would make the payments on the loan.  The
avoided energy costs at future PG&E rates will make the ROI much shorter.

Two things make it effective in PG&E territory.  

PV eliminates purchase of the high rate tier energy, reducing the price
bracket for energy that is purchased.  My PG&E purchased kWh dropped to
$.062 average.  The current PG&E schedule would have me paying $.369 for
some portion of my usage without PV.

Time of Use Net Metering allows me to push kWh back to the grid at retail
rates during peak periods.  My Solar kWh were effectively worth $.33 in

Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA  GPS: 38.8,-122.5

Posted by dold on March 16, 2007, 12:02 pm
Only 98% ;-)  So many pages, some with what appear to be conflicting
information.  They still recommend one on that page.

There was a post here from someone who elected the "selling power to the
grid" link from the main page, and entered an arrangement where he was
paying retail and selling at wholesale, and thought PV in California
could never possibly be cost effective.  That option is available,
but it's for a true producer, someone who might set up a PV farm.
The economics of that are a separate thought, but it certainly isn't an
advantageous plan for a home user.

I don't tackle very many $0,000 hobbies.  I have built a few barns,
and considered building a house, but I wanted the PV installed sometime
during my lifetime.

The level of detailed questions that need to be answered can't be
adequately deciphered via the internet.  My first attempt at using a
professional installer didn't work.  He normally did off grid, and wasn't
very professional about the on-grid nuances.  He did a site survey, but
never prepared a proposal.  He said the rebate money pool was exhausted
for the year, and would contact me early next year when the new budget was
available.  My actual installer said that pool was only for commercial,
not residential, and there was money for residential rebate.

Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA  GPS: 38.8,-122.5

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