Posted by quibbler on October 24, 2003, 4:56 pm
> Bull. If you are saying that there is more generated
> energy than is stored by pressing the syringe it would
> be violating the first law of thermodynamics.
Well, it's not generating more than the stored energy in the syringe.
It's generating 1% of that energy, which is no violation. But from
what I can glean about electrokinetics, the charges it can produce are
only due to the motion of the fluid. I think Jack is assuming that the
water can have an electrical charge above and beyond any produced by
electrokinesis. I don't know if that's how water chemistry works or
not, but nevertheless, even if the water does carry an electrostatic
charge of its own, that charge had to ultimately come from somewhere.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
Posted by Anthony Matonak on October 24, 2003, 12:36 am
Jack wrote:
> Robert Scott wrote:
>>So the power comes from the hand that pushes the syringe, not from the
>>water itself. This looks like just a novel way of converting
>>mechanincal energy into electric power.
>
> not exactly
> more energy is generated from electrostatic - electret-like source than
> from mechanical energy of water.
I don't exactly know what you are saying here but if you are claiming
that more energy is extracted from that water then is put into it
from the hand pushing the syringe then I think you are wrong. If you
were right then you could connect a pump to this device to create
the pressure and, since it generates more energy than goes into it
via pressure, there would be enough electricity generated to power
the pump and something else besides. This describes a perpetual motion
device and violates the known laws of physics. I very much doubt that
it operates in this fashion. It may, perhaps, be more efficient at
generating power than a mechanical turbine though.
Anthony
Posted by Jack on October 24, 2003, 1:52 am
Anthony Matonak wrote:
>
> Jack wrote:
> > Robert Scott wrote:
> >>So the power comes from the hand that pushes the syringe, not from the
> >>water itself. This looks like just a novel way of converting
> >>mechanincal energy into electric power.
> >
> > not exactly
> > more energy is generated from electrostatic - electret-like source than
> > from mechanical energy of water.
>
> I don't exactly know what you are saying here but if you are claiming
> that more energy is extracted from that water then is put into it
> from the hand pushing the syringe then I think you are wrong. If you
> were right then you could connect a pump to this device to create
> the pressure and, since it generates more energy than goes into it
> via pressure, there would be enough electricity generated to power
> the pump and something else besides. This describes a perpetual motion
> device and violates the known laws of physics. I very much doubt that
> it operates in this fashion. It may, perhaps, be more efficient at
> generating power than a mechanical turbine though.
I have meant exactly what you have said in your last sentence.
Both mechanical turbine and electret-like electrostatic energy is
generated.
But who knows for sure.
There is still no details avaliable on the net.
Jack
>
> Anthony
Posted by Say not the Struggle nought Av on October 25, 2003, 3:27 am
When I was in college I remember a demonstration, where a water stream,
ie water flowing from the tap, will generate enough static electricity
to creat arcs, just like a van de graf generator. It was amazing to see.
j.
Sundog wrote:
> Discovery of new way to generate electricity means batteries could be
> powered by water
> By Charles Arthur, Technology Editor
> 20 October 2003
> The battery of the future could be powered by nothing but water following
> the discovery of the first entirely new way to generate electricity in more
> than 160 years.
>
> Though hydro-electric uses water to drive turbines to generate electricity,
> the technique found by two Canadian scientists is the first to convert water
> directly into electricity. The last new forms of electricity discovered was
> solar power and proton exchange membranes in 1839.
>
> Initial applications could be mobile phones and other electronic devices
> that use rechargeable batteries, but Larry Kostiuk and Daniel Kwok,
> researchers at the University of Alberta who made the discovery, think that,
> in time, it could even be used for full-scale power generation. The "water
> battery" would be non-polluting, non-toxic and completely portable. And it
> could be ready for commercial application before the end of the decade. The
> discovery uses the movement of water through microscopic channels to
> generate electricity by using just a hand-operated syringe, some water and a
> piece of glass 1cm in diameter and 3mm long. It is a breakthrough
> application of nanotechnology, the science of molecule-sized artefacts.
>
> And it was also a complete accident, caused by Dr Kostiuk's decision, after
> he was appointed head of the university's department of engineering, to
> discover what his colleagues were doing. One of those was Dr Kwok.
>
> "How long did we work on it? Oh boy, it's embarrassing," said Dr Kostiuk,
> who normally works in the field of combustion chemistry. "It's not like we
> laboured for years. One afternoon I went to visit Daniel, and he was
> explaining what he did in electrokinetics [the science of electrical charge
> in moving substances such as water]."
>
> Dr Kwok explained how, when water travels over a surface, the ions that it
> is made up of "rub" against the solid. That leaves the surface slightly
> charged. With water being made up of positive and negative elements, those
> with the same charge as the surface are slightly repelled; those with the
> opposite charge are attracted. That creates a thin liquid layer which has a
> net charge, known as the electric double layer. "So I said, 'If you separate
> the charges, then it looks a lot to me like a battery,'" recalled Dr
> Kostiuk. At which Dr Kwok abruptly started looking at his work with fresh
> eyes. "It derailed my whole afternoon," said Dr Kostiuk. "We spent hours
> talking about how you would generate electricity from it."
>
> The work is published today by the Institute of Physics journal, Journal of
> Micromechanics and Microengineering.
>
> And might it one day power everything? "You'd need a really big area, like a
> coastal region," said Dr Kostiuk. "But then again, I guess, those are
> available, aren't they?" For a clean, free form of electricity, the answer
> must surely be yes.
>
> From:
> http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?storyE5153
>
>
>
Posted by Nemo on October 28, 2003, 6:59 am
I have read the research paper from the IOP website (where it is
freely avaialble ofr a month). Some of my comments.
1. I was amazed at the kind of press coverage this article has got.
Let there be no doubt about it, it is a good piece of work; but it
tout it as the 'next big thing since Faraday' and make it seem like
commercial large scale power generation will be based on this effect,
seem a bit over stretched to me... may be i am naive.
2. One interesting aspect, which i am trying to understand is how do
they make the channels add in parallel? (this is a sincere question as
i am not able to understand this aspect clearly); They have a
experimental setup (last figure i guess), where water flows into the
porous rock coated with meshed electrodes. My question is water flow
horizontal (ie., along x axis as per the diagram), and if so are the
channels parallel to x-axis? and how to the charges add up?
3. Another interesting question is interface chemistry between rock
and Ag electrodes important?
Regards
Nemo
> Discovery of new way to generate electricity means batteries could be
> powered by water
> By Charles Arthur, Technology Editor
> 20 October 2003
> The battery of the future could be powered by nothing but water following
> the discovery of the first entirely new way to generate electricity in more
> than 160 years.
>
> Though hydro-electric uses water to drive turbines to generate electricity,
> the technique found by two Canadian scientists is the first to convert water
> directly into electricity. The last new forms of electricity discovered was
> solar power and proton exchange membranes in 1839.
>
> Initial applications could be mobile phones and other electronic devices
> that use rechargeable batteries, but Larry Kostiuk and Daniel Kwok,
> researchers at the University of Alberta who made the discovery, think that,
> in time, it could even be used for full-scale power generation. The "water
> battery" would be non-polluting, non-toxic and completely portable. And it
> could be ready for commercial application before the end of the decade. The
> discovery uses the movement of water through microscopic channels to
> generate electricity by using just a hand-operated syringe, some water and a
> piece of glass 1cm in diameter and 3mm long. It is a breakthrough
> application of nanotechnology, the science of molecule-sized artefacts.
>
> And it was also a complete accident, caused by Dr Kostiuk's decision, after
> he was appointed head of the university's department of engineering, to
> discover what his colleagues were doing. One of those was Dr Kwok.
>
> "How long did we work on it? Oh boy, it's embarrassing," said Dr Kostiuk,
> who normally works in the field of combustion chemistry. "It's not like we
> laboured for years. One afternoon I went to visit Daniel, and he was
> explaining what he did in electrokinetics [the science of electrical charge
> in moving substances such as water]."
>
> Dr Kwok explained how, when water travels over a surface, the ions that it
> is made up of "rub" against the solid. That leaves the surface slightly
> charged. With water being made up of positive and negative elements, those
> with the same charge as the surface are slightly repelled; those with the
> opposite charge are attracted. That creates a thin liquid layer which has a
> net charge, known as the electric double layer. "So I said, 'If you separate
> the charges, then it looks a lot to me like a battery,'" recalled Dr
> Kostiuk. At which Dr Kwok abruptly started looking at his work with fresh
> eyes. "It derailed my whole afternoon," said Dr Kostiuk. "We spent hours
> talking about how you would generate electricity from it."
>
> The work is published today by the Institute of Physics journal, Journal of
> Micromechanics and Microengineering.
>
> And might it one day power everything? "You'd need a really big area, like a
> coastal region," said Dr Kostiuk. "But then again, I guess, those are
> available, aren't they?" For a clean, free form of electricity, the answer
> must surely be yes.
>
> From:
> http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?storyE5153
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> energy than is stored by pressing the syringe it would
> be violating the first law of thermodynamics.