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How to build self-powered perpetual motion heat pump ? - Page 5

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Posted by Don Kelly on November 2, 2003, 11:28 pm

conservation of

Right. However, it does not have a thermal efficiency greater than 1. COP is
not efficiency, per se. It may be  confusing but the total energy input to
the heat pump includes that from the cool region. The thermodynamics of a
heat engine operating between given temperatures follows the same rules for
a heat pump as for a heat engine and clearly show the impossibility of a
heat pump/engine producing extra useful energy.

Bull. You haven't a clue about what you are proposing.
RO requires energy input :
 "The process of reverse osmosis requires a driving force to push the fluid
through the membrane, and the most common force is pressure from a pump. The
higher the pressure, the larger the driving force. As the concentration of
the fluid being rejected increases, the driving force required to continue
concentrating the fluid increases".  N.B. Force times flow time time is
Convection also requires energy input.
Now you want to generate electricity which also requires energy input.
So far you have 3 energy sinks for your energy source.
 Now how do you get this energy for RO, convection and electrical output?
Heat pump? What do you run the heat pump with?
A Stirling engine operating between the same temperature limits won't do it
(COP of heat engine is inverse of heat engine thermal efficiency). Increase
the temperature range for the heat engine and you may do it. However, to do
this requires additional energy -i.e. burn some fuel.

 Here is a suggestion- connect a conventional generator to your heat engine,
burn your fuel and eliminate all the other steps to minimise losses - you
will then have a simpler, cheaper and more efficient system.

The problem with perpetual motion devices is that you still will run into
conservation of energy (what you get out is never more than what you put
in). which so far has a 100% record of success while perpetual motion or
"overunity" so far has a 100% failure rate.

I don't expect to convince you but, at least I hope that you will take more
than a cursory look at thermodynamics and conservation of energy (related bu
teasily applicable in non-thermal systems) --
Don Kelly
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Posted by Jack on November 3, 2003, 12:30 am
Don Kelly wrote:

exactly you are right
call energy generation energy transfer
Anyway my intention is to have a much as possible of heat transferred
into a house at a minimal cost.

but what I need is only the membrane used in RO.
But this time used in normal osmosis.
No energy is required.

What is osmosis? It is the phenomenon of water flow through a semi
permeable membrane that blocks the transport of salts or
other solutes through it. Osmosis is a fundamental effect in all
biological systems. It is applied to water purification and
desalination, waste material treatment, and many other chemical and
biochemical laboratory and industrial processes.

When two water (or other solvent) volumes are separated by a semi
permeable membrane, water will flow from the side of low
solute concentration, to the side of high solute concentration. The flow
may be stopped, or even reversed by applying external
pressure on the side of higher concentration. In such a case the
phenomenon is called reverse osmosis.

If there are solute molecules only in one side of the system, then the
pressure that stops the flow is called the osmotic pressure.

The movement of a solute molecule within a solvent is over damped by the
solvent molecules that surround it. In fact, the solute
movement is wholly determined by fluctuations of the collisions with
nearby solvent molecules. However, the average thermal
velocity of the molecule is the same as if it were free in a gas phase
[1 - 3].

Whenever a solute movement is blocked by a wall it will transfer
momentum to it and, therefore, generate pressure on it. Since
the velocity is the same as that of a free molecule, the pressure will
be the same as the pressure of an ideal gas of the same
molecular concentration. Hence, the osmotic pressure p, is given by
van't Hoff formula [4]:

so no energy is required in natural osmosis
even more, free flow of water is generated.
Combined with water fuel cell
get me energy

what energy do you mean moving colder water down and warmer up  ?

ibn natural osmosis we have no energy input

I need only membrane used in RO to use in natural osmosis.
And have that membrane modified to show qualifies of one used in water
fuel cells

thermal fuel cell

Stirling engine powered by osmotic pressure

no exactly,
you may also build low temperature Stirling engine
but Stirling engine is only an example
and is replacted by thermal fuel cell with natural osmosis induced water

but I meant of-the-grid heat pump
natural osmosis water fuel cell works of-the-grid and generates
electrical energy

you are right
replace perpetual by of-the-grid

thanks, you are right,
but what I mean is in no way against the laws of thermodynamics.
look at Peltier's module, I need something like it, but in the form of a
membrane, large-size Peltier's like membrane.

And heat pump is just a model of heat energy transfer to heat a house.
 Replace evaporator and condenser in our heatpump with big-size
Peltier's like membranes and
you get closer to what I mean.
Both Peltier's membranes will generate electrical energy.
Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography.  
All rights reserved 2003.
Global Inventors Organization
28 inventions for auction sale
starting bid $000 a piece

Posted by Don Kelly on November 4, 2003, 1:28 am

then a conventional heat pump may be your best bet- provided that you have a
sufficient temperature range.



I read it- it doesn't suport your point. Go on a bit to one of the refernces
and note that osmosis is simply a reversible thermodynamic effect. Also not
momentum transfer is not energy transfer just as pressure is not power or

For the water the free flow is just as if there was a single tank with no
membrane. So??

And what is this water fuel cell- Oh yes- Meyer's device which has great
claims but no proof for its capabilities (demos for reporters don't count-
solid input output energy balance information does count. Gee, with this why
bother with the osmosis, heat pump or the other trapping, just use some of
the output H2 and O2 to generate electricity to run the device as a
perpetual motion machine.  Why add complications?

Yes - how do you get a temperature difference and maintain it?- energy
input/output needed.


and get no energy out. In fact, trying to generate electricity from the flow
of the water will produce a reverse pressure which will lead to the
cessation of flow (that is an earlier cessation than would occur otherwise).






(related bu

A Peltier module in reverse is a thermocouple. >

You seem to be hopping from one idea to another without showing any
understanding of the behaviour and limitations of each of the devices. This
gives the appearance that you really don't have a clue as to what you are
trying to do. One thing that appears to be foreign to you is the idea of
tracking energy transfers or recognising where they are.
Don Kelly
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Posted by Jack on November 4, 2003, 2:09 am
 Don Kelly wrote:

 but how to power conventional heapump of-the-grid ?

what point ?
osmosis is employed to force water flow throgh water fuel cell membrane

Go on a bit to one of the refernces

Also not

and what is your point ?
water fuel cell is latest invention
to work need pressurized water to flow
I get water flow induced by osmosis.
There is nothing wrong

free, meant, of-the-grid, without the use of enternal source of
electrical energy

ok, let us wait few months for more details

H2 is not free avaliableb yet, so H2 cold fusion cells look great at
shows only.

exactly as conventional heatpump does


not exactly, kinetic energy of water flow is generated

In fact, trying to generate electricity from the flow

it is not the case with water fuel cells

with water fuel cell

but still a heat pump without moving parts, without a need to power from
the grid

I exactly know what I need.
Pig poster size cheap Peltier membrane.

One thing that appears to be foreign to you is the idea of

I would like to manufacture cheap Peltier membrane, used both as heat
pump and osmosis membrane.

Inventor of Tomosonography and Tomoultrasonography.  
All rights reserved 2003.
Global Inventors Organization
28 inventions for auction sale
starting bid $000 a piece

Posted by Don Kelly on November 4, 2003, 7:32 am




If you can't see what is wrong, then you have a problem

But it wont do any work so what one gets out of it is zilch

So does Meyers water fuel cell.

Actually no. Go a bit deeper into the references.  There is KE but it is in
the random motion of the solvent (water) just as it is in a box full of a
gas- same thermodynamics>


won't do

However, to

losses -

Round and round we go

motion or

It needs power form some source and your proposed power sources aren't going
to do it.

At some point you mentioned wind and solar- stick to these directly rather
than put in a whole string of intermediate and lossy junk into the system.
The rest is a non-starter. Peltier devices are reversible electrothermal
devices - great - but to get electricity a thermal  energy source is needed.
To pump heat an electrical energy source is needed. The "water fuel cell",
osmosis, or a heat pump /engine will not solve the problem.

Don Kelly
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