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Re: GFX vs home brew - Page 11

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Posted by dold on April 20, 2006, 10:58 pm
 


You get more hits for
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=Legionella+50+C

http://www.google.com/search?q=Legionella+50oC
gives a shorter list, and has some interesting links.



I see adherence to the earlier advice.

"Legionella die rapidly at 55oC (131o F)(3 log reduction within 1 hour),
and are killed almost immediately at temperatures over 60oC (140oF)."

It was present in the tested systems because they were kept below 43c.

Didn't you say, "Water with chlorine added, ie city water supplies will be
ok.  Well water needs special treatment.", earlier?

" As legionella is chlorine tolerant, it will survive many of the standard
municipal water treatment protocols. Once present in a hospital hot water
system, legionella is able to survive and multiply, particularly as hot
water temperatures are kept relatively low to minimize the scald risk for
patients [35]. In Maryland, state regulations for nursing homes limit
temperatures at the outlet to < 110oF [43oC](COMAR 10.07.02); "

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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA  38.8,-122.5

Posted by Rod Speed on April 20, 2006, 11:57 pm
 
dold@XReXXGFXXv.usenet.us.com wrote


You cant just count the hits, you need to consider the source.


Nope, none that are useful on that question which
substantiate their claims with rigorous science.


You need new glasses then.


Useless for your previous claim about 120F


No, that was someone else.

Chlorine doesnt help much with STORAGE WATER HEATERS.


Again, so much for your 120F claim.



Posted by AstickfortheMULE on April 21, 2006, 2:26 am
 Having worked in critical care medicine for over 15yrs, I have yet to
diagnosis or here of a case of Legionaire's disease.


I think you need bad lungs and bad luck exposure to get this illness.
We are more at risk of driving to the corner drug store and dying on
the way...


Posted by Rod Speed on April 21, 2006, 3:09 am
 

Irrelevant, the national stats on that are readily available.


You are just plain wrong on that.


Irrelevant to the question being discussed, WHY MOST CODES REQUIRE
A MINIMUM OF 60C WITH STORAGE HOT WATER SERVICES.

If anything that low incidence is evidence that that
code requirement is observed, by the manufacturers.



Posted by dold on April 21, 2006, 8:32 pm
 
So, I continued, narrowing the chase.


None that agree with you, I take it?


In a continuum, or can you not hold a thought that long?
immediately at 60, 1 hour at 55, 2 hours at 50, not mentioned in this
quote, but wait, continue further if you can.


The tested samples had Legionella because they were kept below 110f.  How
does that say anything about my 120f claim?

You live somewhere that has a code that requires hotter water.
I find attributions for lower temperatures, but no code requirement.

So, let me look in three places that I care about as references:
nih.gov and CDC.gov as research points, and ca.gov, because they regulate
my life.

Referring to cooling towers, not DWH:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/2005publications/CEC-700-2005-025/CEC-700-2005-025.PDF
"Keep cold water below 25 C (77 F) and hot water above 55 C (131 F)."

From the Centers for Disease Control, whom I would consider to be the
foremost authority.  
http://iier.isciii.es/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5210a2.htm
"The bacteria are rarely found in municipal water supplies and tend to
colonize plumbing systems and point-of-use devices. To colonize,
legionellae usually require a temperature range of 77F--108F (25C--42.2C )
and are most commonly located in hot water systems. "

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol12no04/05-1101.htm
"Legionella colonized 60% of the hot water systems before monochloramine
... Increased prevalence of Legionella colonization was associated with
water heater temperatures <50C ...grows optimally at 35C and multiplies
between 25C and 42C"

Chloramine, not chlorine, is used in public water systems in California.

Further down on the CDC page is a recommendation for health care facilities
to use a system as you described, 61c water storage, and blending to no
more than 51 for delivery.

http://www.awt.org/Legionella03.pdf
seems to be an easy to read correlation of data from sources that I would
consider valuable.  Page 12 speaks of DWH.

Pages that I've lost reference to refer to the desire for hotter
temperatures for Legionella protection, mitigated by the more pressing need
to prevent scalding.


I'm done now.  You win.

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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA  38.8,-122.5

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