Posted by Nick Pine on December 7, 2003, 12:29 pm
>> >Running potable water through underfloor heating pipes
>> >is not advisable at all.
>>
>> Why not?
>If you did that in the UK you may find the water company cutting off your
>supply.
Why?
>In the far reaches of the system sludge and sediment can build up.
>During summer the water sits there uncirculated being contaminated.
Why would the water be "contaminated"?
>When the heating is switched on, this contaminated water then mixes with water
>people come in contact with.
One might flush the tubing every fall...
>In the UK, water used for heating (primary water) is never mixed with
>water people come in contact with (secondary water).
Ah yes. Tradition :-)
>Also fresh water in a heating system is foolish as scale can build up within.
The floor is fairly low temp, and no heating occurs there...
>Scale can mean a total rip out in a matter of a few years, or at
>the least expensive power flushing and chemical rescaling treatment.
Every so often, Mr. Solar, who lives with very hard water, flushes his
entire hot water system with a mild acid. Opens the taps, puts a bucket
in the sewer line and pumps the acid back into the water heater for
a few hours. No big deal.
>I look at some US heating web sites and I am amazed at what they propose.
"Look there! No proper boiler! They must be mad!"
Nick
Posted by News on December 7, 2003, 12:57 pm
> >> >Running potable water through underfloor heating pipes
> >> >is not advisable at all.
> >>
> >> Why not?
> >
> >If you did that in the UK you may find the water company cutting off your
> >supply.
> Why?
> >In the far reaches of the system sludge and sediment can build up.
> >During summer the water sits there uncirculated being contaminated.
> Why would the water be "contaminated"?
Nick, please? Water can be contaminated for various reasons and water
laying there for half a years tend to be prime for contamination.
> > When the heating is switched on, this
> > contaminated water then mixes with water
> > people come in contact with.
> One might flush the tubing every fall...
Nuck, Please? No one wants to flush a system every year. the average old
person in a house is going to do that? Or they incur charges to get a
plumber to flush it. Totally unnecessary if installed correctly.
> > In the UK, water used for heating
> > (primary water) is never mixed with
> > water people come in contact with
> > (secondary water).
> Ah yes. Tradition :-)
Tradition of having the probably the best quality water in the world, and
one of safety regulations that prevent backflow (contamination) into potable
water mains pipes. The tanks in the attics creates an air break that
prevents water back siphoning, among giving a wonderful reserve of water in
case of a water outage and a constant head of water up there.
> > Also fresh water in a heating system
> > is foolish as scale can build up within.
> The floor is fairly low temp, and
> no heating occurs there...
It can still buld up.
> > Scale can mean a total rip out in a
> > matter of a few years, or at
> > the least expensive power flushing
> > and chemical rescaling treatment.
> Every so often, Mr. Solar, who lives with
> very hard water, flushes his
> entire hot water system with a mild acid.
> Opens the taps, puts a bucket
> in the sewer line and pumps the acid back
> into the water heater for
> a few hours. No big deal.
In a sealed heating/water system a one litre can of inhibitor is all you
need every 5 years. No strong acid or the likes.
> >I look at some US heating web sites and I am amazed at what they propose.
> "Look there! No proper boiler! They must be mad!"
Have a close look at European boilers ( a misnomer from Victorian days as
they don't boil). They totally outstrip US attempts in size efficiency and
applied technology. A small box on the kitchen wall will supply all your
hydronic heating and on-demand hot water too. have a look at:
http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk Rebadged MAN (the diesel and truck maker)
boilers from Germany.
The US lead in forced air, which is not popular in Europe as basically we
didn't know how to design and fit them in residential houses. By the time we
figured it out the damage had been done in image.
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Posted by Nick Pine on December 7, 2003, 2:54 pm
>> >> >Running potable water through underfloor heating pipes
>> >> >is not advisable at all.
>> >>
>> >> Why not?
>> >
>> >If you did that in the UK you may find the water company cutting off your
>> >supply.
>>
>> Why?
Why?
>> >In the far reaches of the system sludge and sediment can build up.
>> >During summer the water sits there uncirculated being contaminated.
>>
>> Why would the water be "contaminated"?
Maybe it's the "far reaches" part. How far is a "far reach"?
>Nick, please? Water can be contaminated for various reasons and water
>laying there for half a years tend to be prime for contamination.
So... we seal some pure water up in a jar with a few copper ions, put
it aside for a year, open it up, and voila, "contamination." OK :-) But
suppose the floor has some fresh water flowing through it all year,
some fraction of the potable water consumed in the house...
>> > When the heating is switched on, this
>> > contaminated water then mixes with water
>> > people come in contact with.
>>
>> One might flush the tubing every fall...
>Nuck, Please? No one wants to flush a system every year. the average old
>person in a house is going to do that? Or they incur charges to get a
>plumber to flush it. Totally unnecessary if installed correctly.
You mean "if needlessly overcomplicated with a heat exchanger"? :-)
>> > In the UK, water used for heating
>> > (primary water) is never mixed with
>> > water people come in contact with
>> > (secondary water).
>>
>> Ah yes. Tradition :-)
>Tradition of having the probably the best quality water in the world...
Long may you wave.
>> > Also fresh water in a heating system
>> > is foolish as scale can build up within.
>>
>> The floor is fairly low temp, and
>> no heating occurs there...
>It can still buld up.
Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?
Anyone you know need to descale hot water pipes often?
>> >I look at some US heating web sites and I am amazed at what they propose.
>>
>> "Look there! No proper boiler! They must be mad!"
>Have a close look at European boilers ( a misnomer from Victorian days as
>they don't boil). They totally outstrip US attempts in size efficiency and
>applied technology...
As I recall, Europeans perfected condensing gas boilers 35 years ago...
Nick
Posted by News on December 7, 2003, 4:16 pm
> >> >> > Running potable water through underfloor heating pipes
> >> >> > is not advisable at all.
> >> >>
> >> >> Why not?
> >> >
> >> > If you did that in the UK you may find the water
> >> > company cutting off your supply.
> >>
> >> Why?
> Why?
> >> > In the far reaches of the system sludge
> >> > and sediment can build up.
> >> > During summer the water sits there
> >> > uncirculated being contaminated.
> >>
> >> Why would the water be "contaminated"?
> Maybe it's the "far reaches" part. How far is a "far reach"?
The parts that stays stagnant in summer.
> > Nick, please? Water can be contaminated
> > for various reasons and water
> > laying there for half a years tend to be prime
> > for contamination.
> So... we seal some pure water up in a jar
No we don't seal up water in a jar. We look at why the regulations are so
strict. They are strict because contamination in the past tightened the
regulations up as time progressed. All for a reason.
> But suppose the floor has some
> fresh water flowing through it all year,
> some fraction of the potable water
> consumed in the house...
If the heating system is off all summer no flow will be through the heating
pipes. What are going to do? Have a pump working 24-7 to keep the flow?
> >> > When the heating is switched on, this
> >> > contaminated water then mixes with water
> >> > people come in contact with.
> >>
> >> One might flush the tubing every fall...
> >
> > Nick, Please? No one wants to flush a system
> > every year. The average old person in a house
> > is going to do that? Or they incur charges to get a
> > plumber to flush it. Totally unnecessary if installed correctly.
> You mean "if needlessly overcomplicated with a heat exchanger"? :-)
No! installed correctly to prevent water contamination. Coiled heat
exchangers in cylinders are not expensive or complicated at all. They are
quite dumb with no moving parts - just a coil of copper inside a cylinder.
In the UK they are standard and available at the local plumbers merchants.
> >> > In the UK, water used for heating
> >> > (primary water) is never mixed with
> >> > water people come in contact with
> >> > (secondary water).
> >>
> >> Ah yes. Tradition :-)
> >
> > Tradition of having the probably the best
> > quality water in the world...
> Long may you wave.
And that we agree on.
> >> > Also fresh water in a heating system
> >> > is foolish as scale can build up within.
> >>
> >> The floor is fairly low temp, and
> >> no heating occurs there...
> >
> >It can still build up.
> Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?
Yes. Being experienced in the game.
> Anyone you know need to descale
> hot water pipes often?
Over here? No. As we have tighter regulations than elsewhere.
> >> > I look at some US heating web sites
> >> > and I am amazed at what they propose.
> >>
> >> "Look there! No proper boiler! They must be mad!"
> >
> > Have a close look at European boilers (a
> > misnomer from Victorian days as
> > they don't boil). They totally outstrip US attempts
> > in size efficiency and applied technology...
> As I recall, Europeans perfected condensing
> gas boilers 35 years ago...
The Dutch did research on condensing boilers in the 1950s. They never
really took off until 15-20 years ago. In Holland 95% plus of all boilers
are condensing boilers. The UK is slow to take them up as they are slightly
more expensive and produce an exhaust plume. Legislation in the UK in a few
years time means that all boilers sold will be condensing boilers as the
minimum efficiency of boilers is being raised from 78% to 86%.
The lower the return temperature the more efficient they are.
Microprocessor control of many of these boilers, complete with load
compensation control, aims to reduce the return temperature as much as
possible.
---
--
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com ).
Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 05/12/2003
Posted by Iowa883 on December 8, 2003, 2:39 am
What is a condensing gas boiler ?
Thanks,
Iowa883
> >> >> >Running potable water through underfloor heating pipes
> >> >> >is not advisable at all.
> >> >>
> >> >> Why not?
> >> >
> >> >If you did that in the UK you may find the water company cutting off
your
> >> >supply.
> >>
> >> Why?
> Why?
> >> >In the far reaches of the system sludge and sediment can build up.
> >> >During summer the water sits there uncirculated being contaminated.
> >>
> >> Why would the water be "contaminated"?
> Maybe it's the "far reaches" part. How far is a "far reach"?
> >Nick, please? Water can be contaminated for various reasons and water
> >laying there for half a years tend to be prime for contamination.
> So... we seal some pure water up in a jar with a few copper ions, put
> it aside for a year, open it up, and voila, "contamination." OK :-) But
> suppose the floor has some fresh water flowing through it all year,
> some fraction of the potable water consumed in the house...
> >> > When the heating is switched on, this
> >> > contaminated water then mixes with water
> >> > people come in contact with.
> >>
> >> One might flush the tubing every fall...
> >
> >Nuck, Please? No one wants to flush a system every year. the average
old
> >person in a house is going to do that? Or they incur charges to get a
> >plumber to flush it. Totally unnecessary if installed correctly.
> You mean "if needlessly overcomplicated with a heat exchanger"? :-)
> >> > In the UK, water used for heating
> >> > (primary water) is never mixed with
> >> > water people come in contact with
> >> > (secondary water).
> >>
> >> Ah yes. Tradition :-)
> >
> >Tradition of having the probably the best quality water in the world...
> Long may you wave.
> >> > Also fresh water in a heating system
> >> > is foolish as scale can build up within.
> >>
> >> The floor is fairly low temp, and
> >> no heating occurs there...
> >
> >It can still buld up.
> Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?
> Anyone you know need to descale hot water pipes often?
> >> >I look at some US heating web sites and I am amazed at what they
propose.
> >>
> >> "Look there! No proper boiler! They must be mad!"
> >
> >Have a close look at European boilers ( a misnomer from Victorian days as
> >they don't boil). They totally outstrip US attempts in size efficiency
and
> >applied technology...
> As I recall, Europeans perfected condensing gas boilers 35 years ago...
> Nick
>> >is not advisable at all.
>>
>> Why not?
>If you did that in the UK you may find the water company cutting off your
>supply.
Why?
>In the far reaches of the system sludge and sediment can build up.
>During summer the water sits there uncirculated being contaminated.