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Re: frugal heating this winter?? - Page 12

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Posted by Stuart Brown on October 10, 2004, 5:11 am
 
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PaPaPeng wrote:


Hi.  I suppose you could be right.  In the early '80's I was helping
people  build houses in Eastern Ontario, and there was a short fad where
some people were building a house within a house.  You would have the
outer frame constructed of 2 X 6's,put a draft barrier up, leave 6- 8
inches of dead air, and then  put the inner frame up with 2X6's .  The
outer and inner frame would each have insulation.  This way, your cost
effectivenes increases, since the dead air is insulation which  doesn't
cost  anything.  I believe the person with the high R value in his roof
and walls probably has blue styrofoam.  I remember a newspaper article
about this home where,  in February,  the standard R30 home would cost
about $00/ month to heat with natural gas, his home cost only about $0
or $0.  If you look at it in this perspective, an expense of $0k would
be recouped in less than 8 years.  I met someone out here a few years
ago who heated his home with electric heat.  His electric bill in the
mid '90's was evened out throughout the year at $00/ month. At the
time, our family of six used approximately $0 per month of electricity
and our gas bill averaged out to $0 per month.


You have an excellent point , but this is the part I was talking about
with heat recovery ventilators.  This allow oxygen to be permitted into
the home, but under controlled conditions and with a minimum of  heat loss.

Cheers




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PaPaPeng wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid7s1gm01pn0ll2t456ufl859a3e4hg1hdv0@4ax.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 07:33:45 GMT, Stuart Brown <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
wrote:

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">There is one guy who lives here in Saskatoon with an R-80
value in his
roof and R60 in his walls.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->

This R60 level of insulation is overkill.  After R30 the gain in heat
retention efficiency is very marginal.  Plus the regular fiberglass
batts need to be loosely packed to retain the air cells trapped in the
batts.  That's where its insulation properties come from, the air
cells.  R30 batts fit nicely in the space between the wall studs
constructed from the 2 x 6  or 2 x 4 studs.  To double the wall
insulation to R60 he will have to double the wall thickness.  If this
houseowner crammed R60 into the regular 2 x 6 or 2 x 4  walls he would
have compressed the batts and eliminated a bulk of the air cells.  He
may even have reduced the actual insulation value of his installation.

  </pre>
</blockquote>
Hi.&nbsp; I suppose you could be right.&nbsp; In the early '80's I was helping
people&nbsp; build houses in Eastern Ontario, and there was a short fad
where some people were building a house within a house.&nbsp; You would have
the outer frame constructed of 2 X 6's,put a draft barrier up, leave 6-
8 inches of dead air, and then&nbsp; put the inner frame up with 2X6's .&nbsp;
The outer and inner frame would each have insulation.&nbsp; This way, your
cost effectivenes increases, since the dead air is insulation which&nbsp;
doesn't cost&nbsp; anything.&nbsp; I believe the person with the high R value in
his roof and walls probably has blue styrofoam.&nbsp; I remember a newspaper
article about this home where,&nbsp; in February,&nbsp; the standard R30 home
would cost about $00/ month to heat with natural gas, his home cost
only about $0 or $0.&nbsp; If you look at it in this perspective, an
expense of $0k would be recouped in less than 8 years.&nbsp; I met someone
out here a few years ago who heated his home with electric heat.&nbsp; His
electric bill in the mid '90's was evened out throughout the year at
$00/ month. At the time, our family of six used approximately $0 per
month of electricity and our gas bill averaged out to $0 per month. <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid7s1gm01pn0ll2t456ufl859a3e4hg1hdv0@4ax.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">I took a community college course to build my house.  This
included
courses in good house design, where to put in sweat equity and where
to act as a general contractor in hiring tradesmen.  I still remember
the insulation R value vs heat loss curve the instructor used.  (I
think the heat loss will have to be plotted as its reciprocal to show
a rising curve.) From no insulation up to R30  the curve rises
linearly and sharply and after R30 it flattens out.  Therefore to
install more than R30 you will be paying good money for a negligible
gain in energy efficiency.

The other lesson about insulation and closing up house against leaks
is don't overdo the sealing part either.  The house needs to breath
and some air loss is good.   At that time, in the late 70s oil shock
aftermath, upgrading home insulation was the rage.  There were several
news reports of people who overdid it and caused their own deaths from
oxygen deprivation.  My recollection is a couple of death that occured
in Germany, UK and Australia where the home owners butttoned up the
whole house and even sealed up the small gap around the doors.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
You have an excellent point , but this is the part I was talking about
with heat recovery ventilators.&nbsp; This allow oxygen to be permitted into
the home, but under controlled conditions and with a minimum of&nbsp; heat
loss. <br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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Posted by Tony Wesley on October 10, 2004, 3:48 pm
 

That didn't sound right to me.

$0,000 recouped in 8 years = $,250 / year.

Monthly savings (for February) = $00 - $0 = $60

Number of month = $,250 / $60 = 7.8

Even in Ontario (I live in SE Michigan), there aren't 8 heating
months per year.  And most of them are cheaper than February.

Sorry to pick nits, I agree with the general thrust of your post.

Posted by Stuart Brown on October 11, 2004, 4:51 am
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Don't forget the summers can be up to 45C, and if there is air
conditioning in the house,  the insulation will  cut the costs for the
air conditioner as well.  My apologies for not  explaining fully.   We
have a weird  year this year, but for the bulk of September, we already
had the heat on.  It was 25C today, but the kids here are used to
already wearing their winter jackets by mid October.

 "If you can't fit your Halloween costume over your snowsuit, you'll be
SORRY!"  

Our thermostat is usually set at around 18C (65F)   And,  I am  almost
embarassed to admit it, but I HAVE worn my parka in March WITH shorts
on, when it was -10C  :-(
 
Cheers
Stu Brown



Tony Wesley wrote:


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Don't forget the summers can be up to 45C, and if there is air
conditioning in the house,&nbsp; the insulation will&nbsp; cut the costs for the
air conditioner as well.&nbsp; My apologies for not&nbsp; explaining
fully.&nbsp;&nbsp; We
have a weird&nbsp; year this year, but for the bulk of September, we already
had the heat on.&nbsp; It was 25C today, but the kids here are used to
already wearing their winter jackets by mid October. <br>
<br>
&nbsp;"If you can't fit your Halloween costume over your snowsuit, you'll be
SORRY!" &nbsp; <br>
<br>
Our thermostat is usually set at around 18C (65F)&nbsp;&nbsp; And,&nbsp; I
am&nbsp; almost
embarassed to admit it, but I HAVE worn my parka in March WITH shorts
on, when it was -10C&nbsp; :-(<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Cheers<br>
Stu Brown<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Tony Wesley wrote:<br>
<blockquote cite="mid578069ae.0410100748.2de31fd9@posting.google.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">Stuart Brown <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">[...]  I remember a newspaper article
about this home where,  in February,  the standard R30 home would cost
about $00/ month to heat with natural gas, his home cost only about $0
or $0.  If you look at it in this perspective, an expense of $0k would
be recouped in less than 8 years.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
That didn't sound right to me.

$0,000 recouped in 8 years = $,250 / year.

Monthly savings (for February) = $00 - $0 = $60

Number of month = $,250 / $60 = 7.8

Even in Ontario (I live in SE Michigan), there aren't 8 heating
months per year.  And most of them are cheaper than February.

Sorry to pick nits, I agree with the general thrust of your post.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
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Posted by daestrom on October 11, 2004, 6:57 pm
 

Heard that one as a kid, and have used it as a parent :-)

daestrom



Posted by nicksanspam on October 10, 2004, 12:21 pm
 

It's a smooth curve.


Change the scale and you'll see that again at R60, R120, and so on :-)


Nonono. Seal it well, then add positive ventilation.


Urban legend? Possibly CO.

Nick


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