# Solar Energy and Hydrogen - Page 6

Posted by daestrom on April 9, 2010, 2:07 pm

dlzc wrote:

Now you're being ridiculous.  Slow the speed down to .1 ft/s and how
large a pipe will you need? Or going with 100 smaller pipes, to get a
flow of 88.4 ft^3/s at a velocity of .1 ft/s, you need a total flow area
of 884 ft^2.  Using '100 outbound' pipes as you suggest below, those
pipes are 3.35 ft across (larger than the 1 m pipe I posited).

Nope.  Using several small pipes instead of one large one increases the
friction losses.  Slowing the flow to 1/100th what I posited saves you
losses by reducing to 1/10000, but then increasing the number of pipes
to 100 raises it back up to about 2/1000 of what I was assuming.

And now you need 100 pipes, about 3.35ft diameter, 250 miles long, able
to contain 60,000 psi.  Congratulation, your pipe costs are now 100
times what I suggested.

This is *MUCH* different than the drill pipe used on ocean platforms.
For goodness sakes, the high pressure piping used in the highest steam
pressure power plants is only about 3-inches wall thickness.  Yours
needs to be five times as thick as this.  Drill pipe wall thickness is
less than 1 inch.

Where did you ever get the idea that the pipe thickness of drill pipe
was comparable to 15 inches?

And that was my point.  Slow it down to your speed of 0.1 ft/s and your
construction costs are incredible.  You couldn't afford even the
interest on the debt.

No high pressure steam pipe in the world operates at even 20,000 psi,
much less your 60,000 psi.  (P.S.  I've actually found steam leaks using
brooms, but it was only 600 psi.  A high-pressure drain trap cap blew

I'd like to see the specs on a pump that can achieve 60,000 psi at more
than a milliliter per minute.

Engineering can't fix a poorly conceived use for hydraulic power.  (I
'kinna change the laws of physics captn) Hydrogen piping would be vastly
cheaper than this hydraulic idea (not that I'm in favor of H2).

daestrom

Posted by dlzc on April 11, 2010, 4:33 am

Dear daestrom:

I think we've beat this dead horse pretty well...

"Money is no object."  I did say that electrical distribution is far
superior...

...

I saw them in Mexico.  They used them to sterilize orange juice
(80,000 psi) and guacamole (100,000 psi).  250 hp (less losses) being
sent through a 1/2" line (and no not any great distance).  Seems like
the manufacturer was Ingersoll-Rand.

Was a cool story about the guacamole.  One time they did not purge all
the air from the chamber (~3ft in dia x 8' high), before
pressurization.  Got it up to pressure, held if for <secret squirrel>
minutes, slowly opened the chamber, and before they could start
unloading it... the gas changed from whatever state it was in to the
state of 'BOOM'.  Guacamole on the ceiling.  They said no one was
hurt...

David A. Smith

Posted by daestrom on April 11, 2010, 2:19 pm
dlzc wrote:

That's cool.  How does that 'sterilize' the juice?  Pumping it through
some sort of microsieve?  Or is that pressure so high that bacteria are
killed directly?

Yeah, at such pressures I can only imagine what the air in the chamber
did.  Probably dissolved into the guacamole fluids some how.  Then
release the pressure and it suddenly comes out of solution (like a scuba
diver getting the bends).  Or perhaps even a super-saturated state and
one tiny disturbance caused it all at once like superheated water
suddenly flashing to steam.

Later,
daestrom

Posted by dlzc on April 11, 2010, 11:21 pm
Dear daestrom:

The latter.  Life depends on a cell wall, and in humans (and simpler)
we use a Na+/K+ ATPase "pump" to carry food and such across the
membrane, and send wastes out.  At those pressures, there is
essentially *no* cell wall, no membrane, and the pump just shuts
down.  Everything diffuses everywhere.  Means life is unlikely on
massive planets...

Even short life with stubby legs.

The latter seems most likely.  Glad I wasn't there when it happened.
They'd've had some BROWN to clean up too.

Out.

David A. Smith

Posted by daestrom on April 7, 2010, 9:18 pm
dlzc wrote:

Hydraulic energy transmission suffers from losses.  Anything over a few
hundred feet becomes a waste of time.  Fluid friction in the pipe is
very real and lossy (depending on exactly what fluid you're pumping).

daestrom

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 Re: Solar Energy and Hydrogen PolicySpy 04-05-2010
 Re: Solar Energy and Hydrogen PolicySpy 04-06-2010
 Re: Solar Energy and Hydrogen PolicySpy 04-06-2010
 Re: Solar Energy and Hydrogen PolicySpy 04-06-2010
 Re: Solar Energy and Hydrogen Morris Dovey 04-06-2010
 Re: Solar Energy and Hydrogen Jean Marc 04-08-2010
 Re: Solar Energy and Hydrogen Jean Marc 04-08-2010
 Re: Solar Energy and Hydrogen Morris Dovey 04-08-2010
 Re: Solar Energy and Hydrogen Jean Marc 04-08-2010
 Re: Solar Energy and Hydrogen PolicySpy 04-06-2010
 Re: Solar Energy and Hydrogen PolicySpy 04-06-2010
 Re: Solar Energy and Hydrogen PolicySpy 04-06-2010
 Re: Solar Energy and Hydrogen PolicySpy 04-08-2010
 Re: Solar Energy and Hydrogen PolicySpy 04-08-2010