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Posted by Antonio VELA VICO on September 15, 2003, 10:25 pm
 
Si, lo inventó El Ingeniero Zapata, (compañero mío).Se montó a finales de
los setenta o principios de los 80 en el pueblo de Manzanares Ciudad Real y
generaba alrededor de 100 Kw., Yo lo visité, tenía alrededor de una hectárea
de invernadero, posteriormente el ingeniero murió de un infarto y alguien de
su equipo, me trajo información sobre los ciclónicos vorticales alimentados
por agua, sistema mas avanzado. Si tienes interés te pongo en contacto con
los actuales constructores, me pidieron fabricar un pequeño generador para
demostración.(Busco las publicaciones y te las escaneo).



Posted by Fred B. McGalliard on September 15, 2003, 3:05 pm
 


You may want to look at the Ocean Thermal (OTEC) power systems. There is one
operating in Hawaii, on the big island. The trick is that you do not need to
boil water to get power, and if you really want to, you can boil water down
to near freezing. Fun experiment is to pull a vacuum on a glass of water,
watch it start boiling, and after a while it freezes solid. If you can make
a pressure tight system you can run turbines from water as cool as 50-60C,
and condensed at 30C. Just like the OTEC plants, the low pressures make it
large. You can also run sterling engines off these low temperature
differences, and even use unusual working fluids like butane, with a nice
low boiling point. All of these require very large engines to get much power
out of the low "quality" heat.



Posted by feklar on September 12, 2003, 2:05 pm
 wrote:


OK.  I might have to shelve this idea for the time being to deal with
more productive undertakings, but sooner or later I'll probably get
back to it and try to find the way around the problem.

What is the relationship between pressure and the number of BTUs
required to overcome latent heat of fusion?

Has anyone ever considered using ultrasound to try to outright defeat
latent heat of fusion?

At a frequency of 200,000 Hz and a power level of 10 watts per square
centimeter, ultrasound can micro-boil water down near the molecular
level.  This is why an ultrasonic cleaning tank works.

The negative phase of the sound wave carries a rarefaction factor
nearing a vacuum.  As it travel through the ultrasonic cleaning tank,
it drops the vapor pressure below the vapor pressure of the water, and
the water in the area starts to boil, trillions of microscopic bubbles
form and try to start growing.  But before they can grow to any
appreciable size, the positive phase of the sound wave, traveling
right behind the negative phase at the speed of sound, travels through
the same area carrying a pressure of around 12000 psi.  This
immediately implodes the trillions of microscopic bubbles that had
formed in the area, with great violence.  It is the "sandblasting"
action of these implosions that causes the cleaning effect in the
tank.

The question is, if the water temperature is already at 212 degrees,
would this action cause a much faster conversion of the water into
steam?  It would depend on what effect the positive, compression form
of the wave would have.  For all I know it could inhibit boiling, or
have no effect at all, but I get a nagging suspicion that this would
overcome the latent heat of vaporization to some degree, more than the
wattage of the ultrasonic unit would be expected to.  There's
something there I can't quite put my finger on or define.  Some
mechanical aspect I am missing.

I wouldn't think the ultrasound could destroy any steam that had
already formed, since it doesn't appear to do this in an ultrasonic
humidifier.  So, it would seem that it might have the potential to
considerably increase the rate of steam production at the surface of
the water (but only on the surface,  not under the surface).  Perhaps
with a very shallow tank with a very large surface area?


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Posted by Joe Fischer on September 12, 2003, 3:45 pm
 In alt.solar.photovoltaic

:>            Apparently you are not aware of the latent heat of
:>vaporization, which is what make PV more reasonable in
:>relation steam.
:>           And the latent heat of vaporization of water is in the
:>neighborhood of 900 BTU per pound.
:
: OK.  I might have to shelve this idea for the time being to deal with
: more productive undertakings, but sooner or later I'll probably get
: back to it and try to find the way around the problem.
:
: What is the relationship between pressure and the number of BTUs
: required to overcome latent heat of fusion?

       I will respond in alt.solar.thermal

Joe Fischer

--
3

Posted by Joe Fischer on September 12, 2003, 8:58 pm
 In alt.solar.thermal

:>            Apparently you are not aware of the latent heat of
:>vaporization, which is what make PV more reasonable in
:>relation steam.
:>           And the latent heat of vaporization of water is in the
:>neighborhood of 900 BTU per pound.
:
:>           I like the way you are thinking, and I hope you do
:>continue to think constructively and with optimism.
:
: OK.  I might have to shelve this idea for the time being to deal with
: more productive undertakings, but sooner or later I'll probably get
: back to it and try to find the way around the problem.
:
: What is the relationship between pressure and the number of BTUs
: required to overcome latent heat of fusion?

      There isn't anyway to overcome it with water,
but other liquids have different latent heats of fusion.
 
: Has anyone ever considered using ultrasound to try to outright defeat
: latent heat of fusion?

      Ultrasound probably just atomizes the water, not
boil it.   Water absorbs about 900 BTU any time it
changes to water vapor, even if it just evaporates.
      That is how desert water bags work, they stay
60 degrees even in 100 degree air until all the
water evaporates though the canvas bag.
 
: The question is, if the water temperature is already at 212 degrees,
: would this action cause a much faster conversion of the water into
: steam?  

      No, it water must absorb about 900 BTU before
it becomes water vapor or steam at any temperature
or pressure.    But with a greater difference change
in temperature in a turbine, better efficiency is
possible.

      I am still not clear what you want the steam
for, producing electric power for lights, or just
for heating greenhouses?

      If you are just interested in heating, check

www.google.com

      and search for "Trombe wall".

      You mentioned New Mexico, and there are enough
sunny days there to make a Trombe wall work great,
a way to reduce heat may even be needed.

Joe Fischer

--
3

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